Starter Brackets, Bolts and other starter info

[4x4 Forever]

Just remove the starter when you get to the hardware store and take it with you to measure the threads for the nut. Then you'll only have to go under the truck twice!

Oh, don't forget to disconnect the batteries first!

Should be metric...

 

[cscmc1]

Yeah, I think I'll just grab a handful of metric nuts from 10mm on up and take them all out with me. They all know me by now as the "Army truck guy," and I am sure they'll trust me with a handful to 10 cent hardware. I was just hoping to pick the right one up on the first try when I run by there tomorrow (w/o the truck) for some other stuff.

 

[Warthog]

Which starter do you have? Direct drive or gear reduction?

 

[cscmc1]

Which starter do you have? Direct drive or gear reduction?

I'm ashamed to say I'm not sure. I have been looking for comparison pictures t no avail. I do see the different brackets photographed in this thread, so I suppose I can crawl under and see which bracket I have if all else fails.

I guess I was hoping that the studs were the same size and no one would ask this question, and thus reveal my ignorance on the matter.

 

[Warthog]

Gear reduction on the left and direct drive on the right

 

[4x4 Forever]

You really need to crawl under the truck and take a look to see the type of starter you have. As far as the bolt size goes, I have seen several sizes, even a hole wallowing out the rear bracket on the reduc starter and a bolt and nut slipped through. You might get lucky with matching the bolt with a handful of bolts. All of this being said, you will probably be better off removing your starter and beebop on down to the hardware store and get what you need. While your at it, stop by the GM place and get you 2 new starter bolts, don't use the old ones...

 

[cscmc1]

Gear reduction on the left and direct drive on the right

THAT'S the picture I was looking for -- I knew I'd seen it! I have a direct drive starter and support bracket. Thank you!!!

 

[cscmc1]

Any guesses on the nut size on that DD starter stud? I should finally be able to finish my harmonic balancer install tonight, and could properly install that nut while I'm under there if I knew what size to pick up at the hardware store. Thanks in advance!

 

[top_prop]

Mine was a 5/16x18

 

[Tinman84]

Anyone know if the stud that the starter support bracket fastens to on the starter end is replaceable? I was looking at this thread because I discovered the bracket-to-block bolt was gone and the bracket was hanging by the support stud on the starter. Warthog's numbers helped me find a replacement for the missing bolt, but then when I tried to tighten the bolt on the stud, the stud broke off flush with the housing. The starter seems solid enough on there that I'm not going to try to fix this until the weather is better. Just so I know what is coming though, is this something where I can use an extractor to get a piece out of a threaded hole and replace the stud, or do I need to have a replacement welded on the housing?

 

[cucvrus]

It goes the whole way thru the starter. It is easy to replace. Remove the starter and remove the other bolt holding the end cap on. Now use a vise grip and turn the bolt out. I hope it is that easy. If not you will need to take it to a starter repair shop. Not a bad idea while you have it off. Get it freshened up and put all new bolts when installing it. Don't run it without the support bracket that is a definite NO NO. I would send you a used one but you already have one of those. Go new. The used stud may be fatigued. use a 1/4 x 20 nylock flange nut on the new stud. Just welding the bolt on the housing will put all the stress on the tail cap and the original design supports the entire starter front to back by holding it together as an assembly. Don't mess with these starters unless you like changing flexplates on a routine basis. Good luck. If you want a new thru bolt let me know. I can get one for you from a local shop. But you can get one locally also it is a pretty standard part.

 

[Warthog]

Just an FYI. The TM 9-2320-289-34P parts manual has a breakdown picture of many parts of the truck, the starter being one of them.

I am a picture guy. Show me a picture and I can usually tell you how something goes together. And I can usually tell is something is missing.

So to answer your question, the parts manual shows that the support bolt does go thru the housing and gives you a part number to help find a replacement.

 

[doghead]

That is how I found a replacement bolt for mine, when mine broke off.

Fast and easy!

 

[llong66]

I dont even use the stud, I have a bolt the correct size, sorry I cant tell you what that is now, but I just find it easier to work with this way.

 

[Tinman84]

Many thanks guys. I was looking at the starter blowup in that manual and was thinking that the stud I was looking for was the one that isn't labeled that goes through the plate labeled 7 in the diagram. (Section II, p107-10 I see now that I had the starter turned around in my head because I had previously been looking at the diagram above it showing the support bracket on the outside of the complete starter unit. I must've been more tired than I thought. Pictures usually do it for me too Warthog, and thanks for the good info you shared on the bolt size for securing the support bracket to the stud. Thanks cucvrus for pointing out that the stud I'm looking at goes all the way through the starter. That was the probably the biggest thing I was missing as I was scouring the diagram for a little stud, not a big long bolt.
I'm probably going to try to take a look at this tomorrow since it's my day off.
Thanks again gents!

 

[Tinman84]

So, for an update on this. Had issues trying to get the parts in my town. For now, I've settled for reusing the non-broken thru bolt and starter mounting bolts, and replaced the broken "thru bolt w/extension" with threaded rod for now. Wasn't real happy about this because I wanted to fix it right, but I looked at the way it goes together and I figure it's actually using the tensile strength of the rod to do a lot of the supporting because the bracket is pinched tight against the tailcap by the nut on the stud, and the stud is holding clear through to the nose cone. Decided to use blue loctite on the thru bolts because the red stuff isn't recommended for anything under 3/8".
Got all that ready to go back in, even cleaned up the starter a little bit, and ran into issues trying to get the smaller wire reconnected to the solenoid, lost the lock washer, found a replacement, finally had to take the starter back off of the block to get it done, and got the starter remounted, complete with shim and red loctite on the mounting bolts. Tightened the nut for the support bracket on the stud, and got out the torque wrench....
TMs recommended torque for the mounting bolts and the support-bracket-to-block bolt is 33ft-lbs. Torqued the mounting bolts with no problem. (If you can see the writing on the wall, start shaking your head now.)
Evidently when I got a bolt to fasten the bracket to the block before, I asked the guy for a grade 8 and neglected to mention that I needed an SAE grade 8 equivalent, as in frame bolt quality, only for the metric sized bolt I was requesting. I also didn't think to double check it. As a result, I am now the proud owner of a CUCV that has a starter with a mounting stud supporting a bracket that just hangs there, which is where I started. I also have a bear-nasty broken bolt piece that I was unable to get out of my block, and an extractor with a broken tip. I think I may have figured out a way to get a better line to drill the thing out, but it's going to be a bit of an undertaking.
For the moment, I'm trying to figure out a temporary support for the back end of that starter, since the general consensus seems to be that running without is a recipe for broken bolts and damaged flex plates.
Pulling my hair out,
Tinman

 

[cucvrus]

I am felling sorry for you but don't know how to help. the support bracket is the last piece in the puzzle. With out it in place you are doomed to problems. Sorry it is the truth. You must get that piece out. I never used a torque wrench just a short ratchet and made it tight.

 

[Hasdrubal]

The bolt broke with 33 ft/lbs? Even a low grade bolt should handle that, perhaps it was the wrong pitch or there was something wring with the threads in the block. I also just use a small ratchet and tighten it by hand.

 

[Tinman84]

Thanks guys. I'm thinking that that's all I'm going to do once I get the piece out. My regular 3/8' drive ratchet and a little red loctite. I saw someone on here talking about an end mill for cleaning up the end of a bolt piece so that it could be drilled more precisely and extracted, so I think i'm going to look into that. Where the hole is, I think i'm going to have to pull the starter again, pull the bracket that fastens to the frame and holds that rubber stop that keeps things from getting damaged if the suspension bottoms out, and then I should be able to get a good square approach with a drill. I think that my issue at the present time is that my hole wandered off to one side of the bolt, and I think that when I was setting the easy out it may have actually pushed through the side of the bolt, causing the easy out to bite the edge of the threads and break because the block wouldn't give. May or may not actually have been what happened, but it's what's making the most sense in my head as I look back. I just need to regroup and make another assault.

The upside is that, now that I have the old broken stud out for reference, I should be able to find the bolts I need to actually get the right thru bolts in the starter next time I pull it. I was already contemplating pulling the starter again once I got ahold of them, even as I was putting the starter back in before that blasted bolt sheared. Guess I'll just have a little more reason to need to pull it.
Another upside is that I got a pretty good work out benching pressing that starter all day.

 

[Tinman84]

The bolt broke with 33 ft/lbs? Even a low grade bolt should handle that, perhaps it was the wrong pitch or there was something wring with the threads in the block. I also just use a small ratchet and tighten it by hand.

That's been bugging me too. My prevailing theory is that perhaps there was some sort of geometric issue going on with the extensions and the u-joint I had in there to get my torque wrench on the bolt way up in that hole that let it overtorque without clicking. Another advantage to using my plain old ratchet next time is that it's small enough to get up in there without needing all that junk.