• Steel Soldiers now has a few new forums, read more about it at: New Munitions Forums!

  • Microsoft MSN, Live, Hotmail, Outlook email users may not be receiving emails. We are working to resolve this issue. Please add support@steelsoldiers.com to your trusted contacts.

Electric fan for Deuce

rchalmers3

Half a mile from the Broad River
Steel Soldiers Supporter
1,926
30
48
Location
Irmo, South Carolina
The myth won't die because there is a time component to heat conduction.

The longer the coolant is in contact with the hot metals of the head and block, the higher the water temperature will rise to approximate the metal temperature. Achieving a maximum rise in coolant temperature is key to extracting heat at the radiator.

Yes, you can speed up the water flow beyond the original design. By doing so you will see heat build up in the entire body of coolant, not just the portion trapped between the pump and thermostat. By speeding the flow you risk loosing control over heat removal because the water passes through the radiator faster as well.

In my opinion you can increase the flow rate, but it probably won't be of any benefit and may be detrimental.

Rick
 

JasonS

Well-known member
1,650
144
63
Location
Eastern SD
The myth won't die because there is a time component to heat conduction.

The longer the coolant is in contact with the hot metals of the head and block, the higher the water temperature will rise to approximate the metal temperature. Achieving a maximum rise in coolant temperature is key to extracting heat at the radiator.

Yes, you can speed up the water flow beyond the original design. By doing so you will see heat build up in the entire body of coolant, not just the portion trapped between the pump and thermostat. By speeding the flow you risk loosing control over heat removal because the water passes through the radiator faster as well.

In my opinion you can increase the flow rate, but it probably won't be of any benefit and may be detrimental.

Rick
Sorry Rick, your idea just doesn't hold water. Heat flows from hot to cold at a rate proportional to the difference in temperature. The hotter the coolant gets the slower the rate of heat transfer from the engine to the coolant. Slow down the flow of coolant, and you agravate the problem.

Achieving maximum rate of heat rejection from the radiator means you want the entire surface of the radiator to be hot. Slow the coolant down, and the top portion may be hot but the rest is cool and not rejecting heat.

At the end of the day, and thermodynamics aside, this question has already been answered experimentally by numerous people who have tried and proven that higher flow does not result in overheating. Do a search, try it yourself, read a book on thermodynamics.
 

JasonS

Well-known member
1,650
144
63
Location
Eastern SD
Here is another, perhaps more succinct explanation:

http://yarchive.net/car/engine_water_restrict.html

Copied the text from that link:

From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: Cooling system fact or fiction
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 06:12:19 EDT
Newsgroups: alt.autos.rod-n-custom,rec.autos.rod-n-custom

Mike wrote:
>
> The coolant has to remain in the radiator long enough to dissipate its
> heat. Removing the thermostat usually results in hotter temperatures,
> because the heat is not being efficiently transferred from the radiator to
> the air.

What some people will say in public. This is absolutely false, of
course. Try to conceive of blowing on something hot, say a spoonful
of soup, first slowly and then more rapidly. Which cools faster?
For extra credit, try imagining the same spoon with first slow and
then fast water moving across the bottom. Sheesh!

The issue with running without a thermostat is two-fold. The first
part is that the thermostat provides drag on the water flow. This
drag increases the backpressure the water pump and all of the engine
sees. This additional pressure, over and above the nominal 15 psi
static pressure the radiator cap sets, raises the boiling point of
the coolant. The reason this is important is that it suppresses
localized film boiling at hot spots such as around the exhaust
port. The transition from nucleatic boiling (bubbles of steam
originating from irregularities on the surface) to film boiling
(where the hot surface is coated with a film of steam) is called
Departure from Nucleatic Boiling or DNB. DNB is very bad, for steam
is a very good insulator compared to water. Once DNB occurs, the
area under the steam gets hotter because the steam doesn't remove
very much heat, adjacent metal which is still wetted heats from
conduction. DNB happens there. The process spreads until
substantially all the coolant-wetted surfaces are insulated by a
film of steam. The engine overheats. In addition, the buildup in
steam pressure forces the radiator cap open, bleeding coolant,
therefore making the situation worse.

The second issue is that of water pump cavitation and surge. If the
pump is operated at high RPM with insufficient head pressure
(provided by the frictional losses in the coolant passages and the
thermostat), there is a great likelihood that the pump will either
cavitate (localized boiling and/or degassing on the impeller) or
surge (an unstable flow regime). Either phenomena is destructive.
Cavitation's collapsing bubbles act like little sand blaster,
eroding away impeller material. Surge can do the same thing and in
addition, can vibration stress the impeller enough to break it.
Many times what looks like corrosion damage to the impeller,
especially when the housing is damage-free, is actually cavitation
damage.

The myth of velocity originated among those unschooled in physics or
thermodynamics, I suppose, because a common racer "solution" is to
press a fixed restriction into the thermostat housing neck when no
thermostat is desired. The conventional (but wrong) wisdom is that
the restriction "slows the water" as stated by the previous poster.
In reality, all it does is provide some more dynamic pressure in the
block by restricting the flow. The exact same result could be
accomplished (assuming the water pump doesn't surge or cavitate)
with a higher static pressure (cap pressure), assuming the system
could withstand it.

John
 

o1951

Active member
899
155
43
Location
Bergen County, NJ
There is an elementary equation from basic thermodynamics that states that the rate of heat transfer (Q) equals the mass flow rate (M) times a Constant (the specific heat of water) times the Delta T (fluid temp out minus fluid temp in):
Q = M x C x Delta T
In other words, the rate of heat transfer is directly proportional to mass flow rate. If you increase the flow rate, you will then increase the rate of heat transfer. Since you cannot mess with mother nature, it is very naive to think it works any other way.
 

welldigger

Active member
2,602
15
38
Location
Benton LA
The part that a lot of people are missing in this whole discussion is diesel engines operate most efficiently in a given temperature range. Unlike gas engines diesels do not run better because they are cooler.
 

JasonS

Well-known member
1,650
144
63
Location
Eastern SD
The part that a lot of people are missing in this whole discussion is diesel engines operate most efficiently in a given temperature range. Unlike gas engines diesels do not run better because they are cooler.
Somebody once posted that heater kits were furnished with 195°F thermostats to improve heater performance. Is this true and has anybody used one?
 

welldigger

Active member
2,602
15
38
Location
Benton LA
I have no idea about the heater kits. I do know my truck will get to 165°F at idle and after a good hard drive where I'm driving hammer down she only gets up to 180°F.
 

D'cheat

New member
28
0
0
Location
Reno Nevada
"The issue with running without a thermostat is two-fold. The first
part is that the thermostat provides drag on the water flow. This
drag increases the backpressure the water pump and all of the engine
sees. This additional pressure, over and above the nominal 15 psi
static pressure the radiator cap sets, raises the boiling point of
the coolant. The reason this is important is that it suppresses
localized film boiling at hot spots such as around the exhaust
port. The transition from nucleatic boiling (bubbles of steam
originating from irregularities on the surface) to film boiling
(where the hot surface is coated with a film of steam) is called
Departure from Nucleatic Boiling or DNB. DNB is very bad, for steam
is a very good insulator compared to water. Once DNB occurs, the
area under the steam gets hotter because the steam doesn't remove
very much heat, adjacent metal which is still wetted heats from
conduction. DNB happens there. The process spreads until
substantially all the coolant-wetted surfaces are insulated by a
film of steam. The engine overheats. In addition, the buildup in
steam pressure forces the radiator cap open, bleeding coolant,
therefore making the situation worse."

Bingo. As I said. you get hot spots in the heads. I never said that faster flowing coolant will cause over heating. Ive seen quite a few people remove their thermostats only to put them back in the next track day due to engine issues caused by it.
Besides, our trucks Rarely will ever see high enough RPM's to cause the issues stated in that article.

Most pro's who choose to will run high flow electric pumps. Not high speed.... You know what. I dont even know why the heck i bothered to post up. Sometimes its just bloody pointless. Figure it out for yourselves. Im going back to lurking.
 

m-35tom

Well-known member
Supporting Vendor
3,022
223
63
Location
eldersburg maryland
you all are STILL missing the fact that the thermostat in a deuce is a 3 way valve and has to be there. when cold it flows in a loop through just the engine, when it wants 'cooling' it starts to include the radiator in that loop and when it finally wants maximum cooling it flows rad and engine in one big loop. you certainly cannot control the engine temp with it out, and you want the engine to be 180° to 200° for best power.
 

Squirt-Truck

Master Chief
Steel Soldiers Supporter
1,180
163
63
Location
Marietta, Georgia
What happened to the electric fan issue??
Or have we forgotten that along with the coefficient of heat transfer of the block materials and radiator.....
 

oddshot

Active member
781
119
43
Location
Jasper, Georgia
That would be correct my plan is to off center the fan and modify the the shroud. Also after working with the technical line... I will be removing the thermostat as the electric fan will control the water temperature. I will be installing a water temp probe and a controller that I can adjust the fan by temperature and actually allow the fan to run for an amount of time after the truck is off.... Sure which I could Dyno the truck before in after.. But I project a noticeable difference
And you would be right.

From the -20 TM

Brake Horsepower:
Gross (fan belt removed; air compressor
turning but unloaded. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 130 hp (min) @ 2600 rpm

Net (fan belt installed; alternator and
air compressor turning but unloaded) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 118 hp @ 2600 rpm

That looks like about 12 horsepower, almost a 10% gain.


A couple years back, I removed my metal fan and installed two 12 inch, 12VDC fans. They fit diagonally in the shroud and I wired them in series.

I saw a solid pickup of 2 mpg's. It might not seem like much, but it got me to 10 mpg on wmo fuel.

As for power, I don't have access to a dyno, but my truck did seem to pull a lot better up and down the hills up here in North Georgia.

The downside ... my truck is a daily driver. In the traffic down closer to Atlanta, on real hot summer days this year, the fans would stay on and the temp would hover a little too close to 195 and not come down. The previous summer wasn't a problem ... but then it just didn't get as hot as this past summer.

I took the electrics off ... and put the metal one back on ... and, as expected, my mpg's dropped.

I liked the idea of getting rid of the parasitic (weight & aerodynamic) drag of the metal fan ... but it just wasn't worth the possibility of blowing a head gasket. Down in FLA that should be a consideration for y'all too. What ever you choose to do ... make sure the modification is reliable.

I look at flex fans and I see they run about $75.00 or so. I'm reading that plastic fans are available that will fit ... but they cost a bit more.

I'll probably watch to see if more guys try the flex fan option before I take another plunge.
 
Last edited:

acesneights1

Member
1,449
22
20
Location
CT
Did anyone successfully do this ?
I would love to ditch my fan. The engine never gets hot in the winter and I have zero heat.
 

oddshot

Active member
781
119
43
Location
Jasper, Georgia
Did anyone successfully do this ?
I would love to ditch my fan. The engine never gets hot in the winter and I have zero heat.
As it says above, some time ago, I tried 2 small electrics ... they couldn't keep up when it REALLY got hot.

About 6 months ago, I ended up installing this:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/flx-416

Twenty three bucks.

You have to do a little trimming to make it fit.

It weighs about 2 pounds so it saves quite a bit over the stock fan.

Keeps the engine cool and reduces parasitic drag. I saw about one MPG gain in fuel. It works.


No good if you plan to go through deep water a lot. I don't, so its good for me.


Check out these threads:

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...hat-history-of-use-MPG-change-with-them/page2

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?119295-Nylon-Radiator-Fan/page5&highlight=flex+fan
 
Last edited:
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website like our supporting vendors. Their ads help keep Steel Soldiers going. Please consider disabling your ad blockers for the site. Thanks!

I've Disabled AdBlock
No Thanks