Winch/crane on M35A3

[tobyS]

Just purchased an LMTV hydraulic winch and am looking for ideas for a pipe crane using the front winch for the main line, on an M35A3. I think they are rated at 11,000.

Overloading the front springs may be an issue.

I may have to make top boom supports go clear behind the cab and having a second winch to raise and lower the boom is not out of the question.

My hydraulics is PTO piston pump, so I have a lot of flexibility, like remote controls.

Will add photos when the winch arrives.

Note...I'm editing this thread to reflect deciding not to make this a front winch and instead go behind (removed "front" from the title). (jokes on me....can't edit out "front")

 

[gimpyrobb]

Lots of details still to be hammered out. Any idea on a lift capacity? The structure alone may overload the front end. If shooting for 2-3 klbsnn id just get a small service crane.

 

[tobyS]

Lots of details still to be hammered out. Any idea on a lift capacity? The structure alone may overload the front end. If shooting for 2-3 klbsnn id just get a small service crane.

Hi Chris, Oh yea on the many details. I probably want about 2 tons close in, standing up and maybe 1 ton laying flat and be able to carry the load (drive from A to B on the farm and also go down the (country) road with it lowered).

How about air overloads? That is a lot of leverage. Or stabilizers?

Having never had my hands on one of the LMTV winches, I'm sure there will be all kinds of details. I'll want manual controls and at least remote on cable-in and cable-out.

I don't want the A- frame so heavy I can't manhandle it off or on. And I want somes stability on an angle. You being an expert on driving trucks on angles can surely give me some tips!

Update...this thread has changed to fabricating a crane that is center mounted, behind the cab and in front of the bed, using my boomtruck to compare with a 105 bed behind it. Also, includes going from 6x6 to 4x4 and strengthening the frame with plate.

 

[73m819]

The overload issue is the axle it self, the front axle load is close to max just with a oem winch, in order to be lifting off the front, you would need frame supports from the front of the frame to the ground to take the weight from the axle/springs, as far as roading or cross countying on a overloaded axle, this is how things get broke, just the weight it self is bad enough, add in the road/field bumps/bangs, sideloading, ect. now you will be a very unhappy camper, you may get away with it a few times but you WILL be fixing a broken axle at some point. mount the a-frame on the rear.

 

[tobyS]

I like the clear field of vision in the front compared to having it behind. The steering makes it easier to position and I mostly work by myself.

A bed winch can be handy also and the rear can handle a lot more loading. I had hoped to make the bed dump, which would not happen with the winch and crane on the rear. My other truck is a M929A2 so I don't need the dump bed necessarily. At this point I'm still open...thanks for the suggestion.

Wonder what the rating on the front axle is and how much weight is on it without any additional load?

I have no plans to go out on the road with a load hanging but I could see moving from one place to another on the road, maybe a couple miles with it attached. I play on a big sand hill, 48 acres, so about all use would be under 5 mph. I would use it for retrieving a beam or holding something while I weld, pulling an engine or holding up a bed, etc.

With the A -frame off it should just look like a front winch (or a bed winch)....if an LMTV winch can look "normal" on a deuce.

 

[rustystud]

One of my next projects is to have a front crane on the deuce. There is of course the military version which is nice but I wanted one like you with a heavier load ability and still movable. One of the first things that must be done is to "reinforce the front axle with an axle "truss" . There are several companies out there making "kits" for them right now. Once the axle is reinforced you need to support the frame as the spring pack needs help. I also like the idea of "air-bags" for this. They will not interfere in normal operation when they are deflated and can quickly become inflated to handle the extra weight. Any good semi truck air-bag can perform this function. Or just buy one of the many kits out there for 1 ton trucks. Another thing I was thinking of adding was adjustable frame supports off the front bumper. I still haven't finished figuring out the raising and lowering of the boom. One idea was mounting two boat winches to the sides of the rear bed. One on each side. The problem is you would have to go from side to side to raise and lower it. That would quickly become a pain in the butt.
The problem with a rear mounted winch is if you go too low you would hit the cab top. You would have to come up with some kind of support behind the cab with a pulley to guide the cable back to the winch. Or just mount the winch behind the cab itself with the support going up to the level of the cab top. A good electric winch could do this job mounted down by the frame rails or mounted up top of the cab. The problem would be making the support strong enough. It's still an idea in progress.
So "tobyS" your not alone in thinking about this.

 

[porkysplace]

Even with a truss kit your pushing the limits of the front axle , with a couple ton hanging several feet in front of it swinging around especially on rough or soft ground. Chain two multifuels on top of the winch and see how it handles.
Raising and lowering the boom is the easy part , a single boat winch with double sheaves off a wrecker boom .
Also once you hang that weight several feet in front of the axle your going to have steering issues with deuce also.

 

[M543A2]

Toby, find an M543A2 and actually if you consider your time worth anything now and on future projects you will use it for you will save money and do the work much more safely and efficiently. With the things you do, you will wonder why you did not have it several years ago. You can pick the load and swing with it, carry it with no problem. With your idea you have to do virtually everything by re-positioning the truck. When I think of the things we use our M543A2 for I would never want to do the majority them with a boom on the front of a truck. I have used hoists on tractors and Payloaders before I got the wrecker and would never go back. We had several times when someone almost got hurt. Your wife might help by running the hoist on the wrecker; my son's wife does it with professionalism. We have a set of hand signals we use that work very well. Small walkie-talkies work if you are out of sight of the operator. You can't beat it for precision placing of the work you are doing. I shudder to think of all of the jimmying around we would have had to do with a front boom on a truck to get precision placement when changing engines, changing beds, etc. When you have problems like that it invites you to take risks trying to lever something into position that can result in injury or parts damage. I do not like the M62 because of the way the crane is made. I spent a lot of time fixing the swing mechanism on one because they can get water in the bearings, failing them, then you have BIG expense if it goes too far before you catch it. The way their swing drive is designed is antiquated in my opinion. I do not like the 900 series wrecker with virtually the same wrecker unit on it as the M543 because it is too high up and not easy to walk around on the deck. Also, the hydraulic front and rear winches on the 900 series are way under the M series PTO winches on capacity rating, both front and rear. Just advice from experiences my son and I have had!

 

[tobyS]

Below is a picture of my boomtruck. I have a broken hyd fitting in the second extension that needs repaired. It's at the shop and we have had a hard time squeezing it in. I used honeymoon money to buy it 28 years ago. Obviously I have an understanding wife. Every major component for the boom has been rebuilt. It's handy with 51' of stick (incl extension). The short boom of a wrecker (and the rather high cost) has kept me from seriously consider one. I sat trusses on an 85' wide pole barn with 22' to the truss bottom once

I can scale my lifting expectation back but I was hoping to do more with the winch than just having self recovery. While I live on a sand hill, it's solid and I don't go into the muck area (with the crane, but do go with 929).

Yea, I'm very aware of the deuce steering too. It's an A3 so I have some help...though probably not enough with an overhung load.

Thanks for helping me think this through. I'll scale back the loading at a minimum...and have only just purchased the winch, so I'm not past the point of no return on anything. Rear is going to get a lot more thought.

 

[F18hornetM]

I agree with M543a2 if possible. I was going to put an A-frame on the rear of the M931 and make it so it would fold up over the cab and lay in a cradle or boom rest. I dont have a trailer for it anyway. Drew it all up, started collecting material. Found a 18,000 lb warn winch etc then bought a M543a2. So, think going to sell the 931 when I get around to it. A frame can have better reach, but certainly not the precision or load capacity of the wrecker boom.

As far as raising an A frame. Was thinking I would set one end on a small step ladder, loader bucket etc. Once you got it above parallel to the ground couldn't you raise it with the front winch? Hook up your rear cables or chains then lower winch line.

Really like your boom e truck by the way, I know thats handy to have.

Half the fun of this hobby is coming up with new ideas or ways of doing things.

 

[tobyS]

I agree with M543a2 if possible. I was going to put an A-frame on the rear of the M931 and make it so it would fold up over the cab and lay in a cradle or boom rest. I dont have a trailer for it anyway. Drew it all up, started collecting material. Found a 18,000 lb warn winch etc then bought a M543a2. So, think going to sell the 931 when I get around to it. A frame can have better reach, but certainly not the precision or load capacity of the wrecker boom.

As far as raising an A frame. Was thinking I would set one end on a small step ladder, loader bucket etc. Once you got it above parallel to the ground couldn't you raise it with the front winch? Hook up your rear cables or chains then lower winch line.

Really like your boom e truck by the way, I know thats handy to have.

Half the fun of this hobby is coming up with new ideas or ways of doing things.

I just sold my M931 because I couldn't afford a RGN trailer and a dump trailer and three MV trucks was at least one too many. This A3 deuce is a sweet truck but major mods will probably reduce it's value, not increase it. Front winch (only) may not.

I buy, fix and sell (while 5 tons were plentiful) but those days are gone and I'm trying to settle with 2 useful trucks, not driveway queens...which the 931 was becoming.

I agree ....conceiving and then the build is the fun part.

 

[tobyS]

The weight problem of the front forces the plan for the winch and A-frame crane to move to the back. I would mount the winch on a frame at the front of the bed. It would not be attached to the truck frame.

It could make pulling stuff up onto the bed, bed tilt (dump) and having a removable, stowable A frame work fine. That approach makes some serious bed frame reinforcement, hinge strength and a solid lock down necessary. Also need double acting hydraulics for the dump to pull against it while it is up, not locked down. Hmmmm

Here is a site with a gin pole bed; http://www.norstarcompany.com/lg.cfm

 

[73m819]

That is nothing but the cevy version of the deuce pipeline truck bed, try to find one of those with the headack rack and rear winch, mount on the happy 5t (may need to shorten the rear frame a bit but when done it will be a good looken truck).

 

[gimpyrobb]

Having a 5ton wrecker, I can honestly say, fix your current crane. I love the ability my crane gives me, but it always seems to run out of stick and (because I am a) one man show, rigging up a lift, climbing up in the operators bucket and having the rigging fall out of the crane hook SUCKS! Then you have to jump down and re-rig for the lift. I have a small home-made crane in the back of my M35 that is GREAT for most stuff. I have had plenty of experience moving loads and my end-game is a crane trailer. I have a 4klbs liftmoore that I plan on mounting on the top of an M353 trailer tounge and then having a flat bed behind the gooseneck between the wheels. I will be able to load the deuce bed, the trailers flat bed, and whatever else I want. Yes I will have stout outriggers so I can use it without being hooked to the deuce and the wired remote will be a HUGE advantage as far as I am concerned. No, I will not have the capacity of the M62, but I rarely use it to lift 20klbs.

I have also wondered about building some sort of "A" frame on the outside of the deuce bed to use as a gantry to lift things into the bed. Way too complicated after I thought it through though.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Lots of gin-pole info here:
http://weldingweb.com/showthread.ph...-easy-adjustable-gin-poles&highlight=gin+pole

There are videos posted too, but I haven't found them yet...


This is the thread I learned the most from. Rest in peace Irish!

http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?434081-A-winch-truck-thread&highlight=gin+pole

 

[tobyS]

Thanks Ron, I sold the M931A2 so am working with an M35A3. I'll use the cargo bed and unlike the one linked, will make it dump. I just saw the jib and the rear roller and posted it up for some design ideas (not buying it). The OEM bed will take some serious reinforcement and a stout scissor (double acting) to pull with the winch when the bed is up. It may not always be a straight pull, so pulling sideways, twisting, will have to be considered.

THANKS CHRIS FOR ALL THOSE LINKS....lots of useful information! Like all.

I'm looking forward to getting the winch. I read they are to 11,000 and can have up to 300' of lead. That seems like a lot when the boomtruck can only fit about 150' of 1/2". We'll see.

Photo is of the truck. Last one is comparing with 14.00 NDCC. 395 is probably what I'll end up with....but I like dual 11.00's rear and 365 on the front too. Parts I have to fix it up are 2 new seats, a new drivers door, fully rebuilt Allison 1545 with PTO and piston pump. What I need....hardtop, spring base for passenger seat, new shoes (tires).

 

[porkysplace]

Below is a picture of my boomtruck. I have a broken hyd fitting in the second extension that needs repaired. It's at the shop and we have had a hard time squeezing it in. I used honeymoon money to buy it 28 years ago. Obviously I have an understanding wife. Every major component for the boom has been rebuilt. It's handy with 51' of stick (incl extension). The short boom of a wrecker (and the rather high cost) has kept me from seriously consider one. I sat trusses on an 85' wide pole barn with 22' to the truss bottom once

I can scale my lifting expectation back but I was hoping to do more with the winch than just having self recovery. While I live on a sand hill, it's solid and I don't go into the muck area (with the crane, but do go with 929).

Yea, I'm very aware of the deuce steering too. It's an A3 so I have some help...though probably not enough with an overhung load.

Thanks for helping me think this through. I'll scale back the loading at a minimum...and have only just purchased the winch, so I'm not past the point of no return on anything. Rear is going to get a lot more thought.

So does this Ford have the Marmon-Herrington all wheel drive on it ?
It kinda looks like lockouts on the front .

 

[tobyS]

So does this Ford have the Marmon-Herrington all wheel drive on it ?
It kinda looks like lockouts on the front .

Rockwell and Rockwell transfer case...yes lockouts (would fit the M35 also).

 

[F18hornetM]

I really like the Ford. Like Gimpy said its rare or never do we lift anything thats 20K lbs. But the reach is a big deal. Hey, paint the Ford OD green and and put military markings on it, no one will know the difference.

 

[tobyS]

Oh yea Chris...good links !! I'm getting many ideas from them while thinking of attaching to and reinforcing the deuce bed.

What I didn't see is using the winch to pull something directly up onto a tilted bed (like a car hauler) that also had a jib. I assume the roller at the rear is to pull stuff over it directly from the winch at the front (which tilting would make easier but change the structure a LOT).

Also, something unique to the army truck compared to most commercials is the lack of a real hard top with some minimal roll over protection. Makes me think the cab should get built up also. I want to be able to climb on top and work without caving it in.

I had a prior thread about making a hard top (thanks all who guided me) and concluded a HEMTT style would allow strength to stand and work off of, some roll over protection, a front overhang to get water away and within my skill range (until the the budget is empty).

I'll look for a good scale drawing, and make a side view design sketch to post up.