Second Gear

[stumps]

chuck, i think there's a gap between what you are saying and what Tom is saying.

when you spoke of slipping the clutch, you also mentioned applying engine throttle.

Read the TM I referenced: "Release clutch pedal slowly AND depress accelerator pedal to increase speed..."

Not: "Release clutch pedal slowly and then depress accelerator pedal to increase speed..."

It's a nearly simultaneous action. The engine is not intended to be supplying a lot of torque at idle. In most circles that is known as lugging the engine.

I am not talking about aggressively slipping the clutch all the way up to speed, but you do have to slip it from stop to about 3MPH when you start out in first gear, and about 5 or 6MPH when you start out in second gear. The slippage to get up to "Idle" ground speed in first takes a fraction of a second. It takes plus of a second in second gear.

All things equal, it shouldn't take too much thought to figure out which is harder on the truck, and the clutch.

when Tom speaks of not slipping the clutch (as have i), he is just talking about easing the clutch out with the engine at idle. yes, obviously the clutch still is slipping some, but not near as must as, say, driving a gasser car and having to apply gas and clutch simultaneously. so, if you have to apply throttle during let-out, then your idle is too low, gear selection is too high, or the truck is laden.

When I teach new drivers how to work a clutch, with gas or diesel, I teach them about clutch control by having them start unloaded on a level surface at idle.
You can start any vehicle that way. That doesn't mean that it is an optimal solution. Just one of the boundary conditions.

i drive how Tom refers - let the clutch out to get you moving. once the clutch/engine rpms are matching and fully engaged, then apply throttle. this manor only exposes the transmission to 'let-out torque' of the engine from a stand-still.

driving this way (in whatever gear you want to start in) virtually eliminates torque spikes through the trans. this is also the method used by OTR drivers..... well, those that still shift, anymore.

But by stating it the way you and Tom are (You don't have to slip the clutch!), you are divorcing the entire clutch/accelerator pedal action by just stating one boundary.

When you drive, you have to adjust your methods to incorporate any degree of hill, and any degree of load. That means that you are going to be slipping the clutch to a varying degree, and applying the accelerator pedal at start up to a varying degree.

To say you are not is disingenuous.
[uhmmm, misleading would be a nicer word - chuck]

-Chuck

 

[mudguppy]

... To say you are not is disingenuous. ...

ok.


done.

 

[stumps]

Wow! My last couple of posts were much harsher than I meant to be. I am sorry.

I need to chill out!

-Chuck

 

[Billy Bobbed]

You keep saying that, but either you don't know what "slipping the clutch" means, or you are intentionally trying to talk people into breaking their trucks.

In first gear, 2600RPM = 9MPH therefore,

800RPM x 9MPH/2600RPM = 2.8 MPH

In second gear, 2600RPM = 16MPH therefore,

800RPM x 16MPH/2600RPM = 4.9 MPH

If you don't slip the clutch, you are asking your truck to instantly accelerate to 2.8 MPH if you are in first gear, and 4.9 MPH if you are in second. That is just plain wrong!

So which is it?

-Chuck

[This post is much meaner than I meant for it to be - Sorry! -Chuck]

Im trying to understand your shifting RPM. Man that sounds high to shift.I took a good look at my RPM today.I shifted between 1800 to 2100 RPM on every shift.And 2100 RPM on the engine sounds alot to me.Maybe im not reading your post right on shifting RPM.

 

[wldrbob]

i think hes just showing whats max and idle speed will dip lower as the clutch ingages .right down to 0 rpm sometimes lol

 

[stumps]

My post above (much ruder than I intended) was to show you how fast your truck travels at idle speed in first gear and in second gear.

To calculate that speed, I took the ratio of the maximum speed, and the maximum RPMs in first, and second gear and used them to calculate the speed when the engine is idling at 800 RPM.

When you start off, with your engine at idle speed, the clutch has to bring the truck up from 0 MPH to 2.8MPH if you are in first, or from zero MPH to 4.9MPH if you are in second.

If you don't slip your clutch when you start out in second at idle, your truck (assuming it doesn't stall), has to lurch forward from 0 to 5MPH as close to instantly as it can. Not a good thing!

Everyone slips their clutches when they start out, even if they don't know that they do.

-Chuck

 

[Billy Bobbed]

I have to bring the throttle up a little. And then I let out on the clutch to match the fell of the truck.Theres been times I didnt get the RPM up just right and it will start to buck a little.SoI push the clutch down a little, and do it again.But when you drive one for awhile with experience driving a stick,you learn how to drive it right.When you get the throttle and let the clutch out just right it is smooth as silk.I guess if I have to put a clutch in or a tranny thats what I have to do,to drive it my way.

 

[stumps]

There is a lot of art to driving a stick shift properly. It defies easy description with words. And if you describe the art accurately with words, they defy easy understanding...

The only thing I would like to have come out of this thread is an understanding of what has to happen when you start in first, or second. And what the trade-offs are for each technique.

It's your truck; property rules are supreme in my book. Do it the way your muse tells you, and be happy. If something breaks, don't worry, there will be plenty of folks here to tell you what you did wrong

-Chuck

 

[whzsup]

I'm still new to the deuce, but it seems that down shifting to second may be worse than taking off in second. If second is only good for say 4 to 8mph, then you should be below that in order to down shift to it right?

 

[stumps]

I'm still new to the deuce, but it seems that down shifting to second may be worse than taking off in second. If second is only good for say 4 to 8mph, then you should be below that in order to down shift to it right?

There usually is no practical reason to down shift to second. If you are doing it to slow down, just use your brakes. If you are planning to run slow where being in second seems appropriate, slow down to the speed you were planning on going, and then shift to second.

-Chuck

 

[Billy Bobbed]

The more I drive the truck now Im using first gear more.But it is still hard to get it in 2nd gear.I never had a manual trans this bad to shift.But it still works.

 

[wsucougarx]

Start off in 2nd gear....start off in 1st gear....drive with wide open throttle during a cold start....drive continously at redline.....pull the shut off without the 5 minute cool down....

Gentlemen, all these arguments can go on and on. Some will claim they've been doing it for years or know someone who knew someone that did it without any issues....on and on and on....
When you get down to it...IT"S YOUR TRUCK. If you don't want to take care of it and drive it into the ground and shorten the life of the truck then go ahead....you paid for the truck. We can all use a few more parts trucks. It's amazing reading the arguments posed in some of these threads. If you ask a question, then be prepared to have an answer either based on experience or text book answers. There are a dozen or more answers to everyone's one question. Just use common sense. It seems no matter how logical an answer may seem, everyone gets stuck in their habits, good or not.
I don't want this to turn into a rant or rave reply but come on guys.
Common sense would tell me to start off in first gear. Less strain on the clutch, tranny, and engine. Strain is a cumulative event, it may not shear your second gear key now but continuing to strain it will.
Alright, that's it for me

 

[jwaller]

The more I drive the truck now Im using first gear more.But it is still hard to get it in 2nd gear.I never had a manual trans this bad to shift.But it still works.

have you tried changing the fluid? I switched to syntech 75-90 and it helped a lot.

 

[Billy Bobbed]

have you tried changing the fluid? I switched to syntech 75-90 and it helped a lot.

Yes it didnt make a differance.In the past 7 or 8 months Ive had the truck.I have tried differant RPMS.Slow,fast,soft,hard shifts.Now that Im using 1st gear more when I go in 2nd it some times catches the 2nd gear tooth not good.Very rare it goes in smooth.So either way If I keep shifting from 1st to 2nd or taking off In 2nd,one day 2nd is going out.So I dont know witch is worse.I have thought about taking the the top off the trans to see if the forks are good.I guess Ill wait till the trans goes out and put a better one in,hopefully.All the other gears work fine.What RPMS are you guys shifting at.I have been shifting at around 2100 RPM.With 46" tires.

 

[tm america]

first gear isnt syncronised it is gonna be hard to shift in or out of no matter what you do.synthetic fluid may help some know how best to drive it will help a little more.but it still is a non syncronised gear at the end of the day

 

[rat4spd]

If you don't want to take care of it and drive it into the ground and shorten the life of the truck then go ahead....you paid for the truck. We can all use a few more parts trucks

If you think I'm so callous in the way I treat my truck, then why on earth do you think I'd give anyone the priveledge of using it as a parts truck? I'd just scrap it. BTW, thanks for resurrecting this thread. All of the podium stomping will commence for a few more days now.

 

[pittdog]

NO NO NO ! WHAT EVER! ALL THE TIME, START OFF IN (1ST) ..... YOU'LL RUIN (2) GEAR !!!! ... BOBED .. OR NOT !

 

[tm america]

i would really like to get a look at one of these with a failed second key way. i would bet willing to be the failure is from downshifting not starting off in second. the amount of load the multifuel engine can put on it accellerating is very minute to the load placed on it in the other dirrection during engine braking. the force put on the gear during accelleration is never more than the amount of torque the engine makes which is barely more than a 5.0 ford motor.but the force put on it when using the engine to slow the truck down when loaded is the weight times the gear ratio vs speed differeence. which can be more than ten times the force of a full throttle second gear start even fully loaded.i have been building transmissions for about 18 yrs and i know you have to look at it like c.s.i. .do the investiagation and see what really caused the failure so you casn prevent it from happening again

 

[mudguppy]

... Very rare it goes in smooth.So either way If I keep shifting from 1st to 2nd or taking off In 2nd,one day 2nd is going out.So I dont know witch is worse.I have thought about taking the the top off the trans to see if the forks are good.I guess Ill wait till the trans goes out and put a better one in,hopefully.All the other gears work fine.What RPMS are you guys shifting at.I have been shifting at around 2100 RPM.With 46" tires.

Billy, you have described my truck's transmission shifting characteristics perfectly: occassionally it'll go into second good, but usually it won't, whether you start in 1st or 2nd, stopped or rolling, hi-rpm or low.... whatever.

the real PITA for me is when i have to start from a dead-stop uphill: i have to wind up in 1st as much as i can (2500 if i'm lucky ) in order to have some extra time to coax it into 2nd. usually, i just make it into 2nd w/out bogging it down to much. usually...

this is what it comes down to: these transmissions suck. it was only 'OK' as far as synchronized transmissions were concerned 40+ years ago when it was designed. they are fragile, finicky, and completely intolerant of any abuse. and because of the previous, they really aren't suited for a happy life behind a deuce w/ larger tires or one that is heavily loaded often.

the reality is that folks would be much better off using a newer Eaton/Fuller 5 spd, or even a recent Clark 5spd. however, you won't find any that will fit w/out having to relocate the transfer. as it is, my customized 4500 is still 2" longer than the Spicer.

and if you are willing to do the work, then [again] you'd be better off w/ a 6spd (more like 7+ w/ larger tires) given the multi's short and squatty power band.

 

[Billy Bobbed]

You would think someone could redesign this trans.As many of these trucks that are at there.