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803 Bogs Down and dies at 85% Load

USAMilRet

Member
390
15
18
Location
Tampa, Florida
Ok partner, perhaps its my turn to explain.

First off let me say, I do believe your going to get this sucker whipped. But from the start, I have felt you might have thought of the golden rules.
1. If it sounds too good to be true, it normally is.
2. Gut und Günstig, wohnen nicht unter die gleiche dach. Translates to: Quality and price worthiness, don't live under the same roof.
Both of these statements are meant to say, If a company that is supposed to be able to fix this thing cant do it well enough to sell you a gen set that is good to go, perhaps the alarm bells should have gone off in your head. You wanted to get a good deal, I see that. But if the "professionals" cant get it, or better said, don't want to spend the time and money to fix it right, somethings real wrong.

And your right, I haven't been as helpful at time as I might have been. One of the reasons is because you have some of the smartest guys I know helping you on this thing. Way smarter then I can ever hope to be. And they are doing great work. So I held back a bit. And will admit I was ready to stop altogether reading this thread. Many reasons, and we don't need to get into them here. Normally, when I wish someone well in their endeavor to fix something, I never come back. But someone in this thread wrote and told me to pull my head out and try and help. He said, (and I agree) that you got pulled across the table. So we need to try and get this thing back on track. So I sat down and read the whole thing, from start to last post, 3 times. The reason was that the thread is so long, and so convoluted, that no one can make heads or tails anymore. That's why I wrote the post #151. A round up. You needed to get folks back into the whole picture. Some of your problems are so far back in the thread, its just hard to remember. Have you ever read it all from start to end? I have, (again) just before I started this. You need to get this published.

And that's why I wrote that you have been reamed, and you should share the news about who did this to you. And he is not alone. Someone was supposed to do the top end, and that was not a roaring success. So maybe we can keep someone else from having the same problem. You have got to admit, (and you have about a million time, post # 198, or 277 are fine examples) that its been a crappy "rebuild". You don't want to use this firms name. Ok, fine. But I would at least use the thread to shame him into giving you some more help and or parts. At this point, I could not sleep well at night If I had this gen set, without a completed engine overhaul. I would be dreaming about what else is not done right, or to specs. It would drive me mad.

Had this been something simple, indeed, you would have been in fat city! But its not been easy. The parts you need, or may need are not going to break the bank in Monaco. But don't ever make the mistake of figuring out how many hours you put into this baby. A good hourly wage would cripple you.

No I don't know who did this "rebuild". No I don't know anything about it. And for me, its immaterial. I don't even own one. Just did a bit of work on them. I just don't want it to happen to someone else. And it could be a case of, "Crap happens". But if so, its sorry. I do not want this to become a dog fight. If your offend, sorry. I haven't a bone to pick with you. Its not personal. So keep up the good work. Don't get down. You will get it. But don't trust anything about this set until you check it!
Thank you for thinking that I would get it whipped. I know I will get it whipped. And I know that I can get the support I need from the members here.

I had nine months to think about it, the pros and cons, and the talking with the owner back and forth. I was never able to talk with the mechanic though. Now Scott's wife just had a baby boy a couple of weeks after they tore down this genset so he claims that he was not as involved with this one as he normally was with others. I understand that from a parent, but from a businessman, nothing will kill your business faster than pissing on one of your customers. So there is that and I knew along the way that he was not putting as much into this as he normally did. Small company, does this only on nights and week-ends (has another full time job), new baby, low overhead, his garage is his work place....well, like most of us here at one time or another.

Whether he is a professional or what level of professionalism he has in this field is unknown to me. His website says since 2009 so he must have been doing something right to stay in business since 2009.

Thank you for your insights on the membership. And here I was told that you fell into that category as well and I am sure the "others" will take your statement as a compliment. Thank you also for coming back then. Yes I remember the thread where you summed it all up. And unfortunately things keep on coming up to convolute the thread even more. Published......yeah, I was just looking at the length of this thread. It is a long, convoluted, ever changing scenario and if you miss a day, you are left behind. I am sorry that you feel that I got raked across the table. In the long run you may be right. I fully understood what I was getting into. I am also fully aware that these engines are almost "stupidly simple" for anyone mechanically inclined but can be considered a menace for others.

OK, I understand why you think I got reamed. And I will share the information at the end of the thread. I am not going to alienate a source for free parts right now. So at the end of the "saga", all will be revealed and people can make their own determination as to whether they will do business with this guy or not. I have a feeling that some of the membership has done business with Scott and have their own views. As far as the top end, aside from the broken rocker arm, there is nothing wrong with it. The work done on it included regrinding all the valves, replacing two of the valves that were borderline, replacing all the springs, seals, etc, and having the head shaved to ensure is was flat. I have see brand new parts come apart. And I am not going to blame the machine shop because they did not install the rocker arms, the diesel rebuilder did. So the head is very nice and or a very good quality of work. I do not know who the machine shop was but if I needed some work done on one of my rebuilding projects, I would not hesitate to use them.

I admit that it was a crappy rebuild due to the lack of gaskets and use of RTV cement, a undersized bolt being used in the head to close a water chamber, the lacking new air filter, the leaking front oil seal (well, this one is a maybe), the oil overage in the crankcase, the lack of a fully topped off radiator (this is really minor), but at least I got two brand new batteries... :) I do not have to "shame" him. I just called him this afternoon and the parts are not going to cost me anything. So no I will not disparage him or shame him because he is still helping. Short of pulling the governor, oil pump, cam shaft, crank shaft and their bearings, this is pretty well torn down and I have no fears of the remainder of the engine. The engine is very clean. I understand about wanting to tank the engine.

I am not looking for compensation. I am a retired home owner and I do stuff because I want to, not because I have too, well unless you count the leaky roof that I replaced earlier this year. It's fun and for me at this point, it is what retirement is about. The monetary thing is out of hand and so far I know that where I am, I will easily recoup my time into this effort and costs from the next homeowner or owner of the machine. My labor on this in the near term is eventual cash in my pocket later. One of the reasons I did the work in remodeling my house including all phases of it. I did it or it did not get done because I refuse to pay for someone to do something that I can do myself.

Again, thank you for your kind words. I have not been here long enough obviously to learn all or even some of your posting habits. I moderate a gun forum as well as all the other stuff and I know how things get misconstrued all the time. I also know that mere words on a screen is only a small part of the conversation. Face to face is always better. And again, wise words about this set.
 

USAMilRet

Member
390
15
18
Location
Tampa, Florida
PAFZZ means:

PA=Stocked items; use the applicable NSN to request/requisition items with these source codes. They authorized to the category indicated by the code
entered in the 3rd position of the SMR code.

F: Direct support or aviation intermediate level can remove, replace, and use the item.

Z: Nonrepairable. No repair is authorized.

Z: Non repairable item. When unserviceable, condemn and dispose of the item at the level of
maintenance shown in 3rd position of SMR Code.

In short, the item has a NSN, it is to be ordered by NSN, It can only be used by Direct Support or higher shops, its a non repairable item, and can be disposed by Direct Support or higher shops.

44940: is the FSCM code. The Federal Supply Code for Manufacturer, (or distributor, NOT always the same!!) 44940: Cummins Power Generation.

186-6146: Military Part number, (not always the same as the manufacturer) Crosses over to NSN: 5365-01-360-2911
Cost: $5.74

Sadly, there is no tech data on the shim, or you could buy an off the shelf, generic shim. But I did find several listings when I plugged in the NSN into my browser. So try doing that, there should be several other references.
Thanks for the breakdown. I was almost there but all that government gobble-de-gook brought back horror memories of having to delve into the TM, TB, LO, and every other acronym that the government could come up with. Almost a PTSD moment... ;)

Can't find it either. Crossed referenced it to a LP part and came up with 751-13181 which is an upgrade from 751-13180. Manuals call them shims but I have seen them referred to as washers. According to the tm, the thickness is 0.0098 in (.25mm) which is the same thickness as the black fuel metering pump shims. I guess I can use one of the new ones I bought to make the shims if I can't find any. And yes, that is about right $5.74 for a single .25mm thick shim possibly 3/16" in diameter.

Oh well.....
 

USAMilRet

Member
390
15
18
Location
Tampa, Florida
Do you have a copy of the Lister Petter parts manuals and work shop manuals?

I am still trying to get a diagram of the tool. My contact is moving right now. Hope he will be up online soon.
Yes I do. Not much information there. It appears to me that this is a relatively simple tool. Looks like an L shaped body with a hole drilled down the long side and a bolt inserted through it to tighten it into the crankcase face. From there, I am not sure except that the distance from the crankcase face and the rack setting is I think 2.19 inches according to the illustration.

tools.jpg toolA.jpg

Now I do not know what the small tab that has a screw in it is for unless it is to hold the rack in place. If this is the case, then this is a very easy thing to make and I can whip one out on my mini mill in no time.

As far as the fuel lever sto/run gauge setting at the bottom of the page, I found one and all it is, is a metal piece with various distance shelves cut into it. The 26.5 means 26.5 mm. So for the MEP803A, the proper setting on the UPPER portion of the fuel stop is 26.5 mm
 

USAMilRet

Member
390
15
18
Location
Tampa, Florida
Do you have a copy of the Lister Petter parts manuals and work shop manuals?

I am still trying to get a diagram of the tool. My contact is moving right now. Hope he will be up online soon.

Yes. I have the LP LPW master parts manual and shop manual. I included some diagrams of the tool in a previous post.
 

USAMilRet

Member
390
15
18
Location
Tampa, Florida
Well, here is the swummary of todays work. I took out piston number 2 (second from the fly wheel end, third from the radiator end) to inspect the placement of the rings. The rings are supposed to be ofset at 45 degree angles to each other and also ofset 45 degrees from the piston pin opening. These are no where close as seen in the photos. Also, a picture of the bearings. The bearings are new as are the rings.

20180806_190724.jpg20180806_190733.jpg20180806_190740.jpg20180806_190854.jpg20180806_190905.jpg20180806_190928.jpg20180806_190948.jpg

So there you have it. Pistons have to come out so that I can re-align the rings. I will have to examine the TM but there are only a few components left in the teardown so I may just go all the way and pull the governor, cam shaft, oil pump, and crank shaft. The radiator is already off so I just have to figure out if I have to take any of the front panels off to get the components out of the engine block.
 

Daybreak

2 Star Admiral
Steel Soldiers Supporter
1,522
771
113
Location
Va
Howdy,
Let me convey some thinking. I myself would rather start with a known broken engine and do all the things I need to do. To start into a engine which was said to have been taken apart and put back together and have the issues you are coming up with... no way. RTV might have its place here and there. But, with a complete gasket (Lister-Petter Joint Kit), there is no need for RTV. I myself, would absolutetly feel the need to totally tear down the engine. When finished, I would know I could count on it. Not guessing after it all was back together running, and then something down inside breaks. I like doing it correctly the first time.

Could be the engine builder did not wait long enough for the lifters to bleed down. Tightened them up and cranked it over, snap goes the rocker.
 

jamawieb

Well-known member
1,435
557
113
Location
Ripley/TN
You're doing a great job! I would not worry about going any further after you verify all the rings are set correctly because you know the builder did not go any further than you have. Now, you will be the expert on these engines because most people have not been this far into these as you are now. Also, think about Daybreak's comment about the rebuilder and he not letting the lifter bleed down before retorquing which could have caused as these problems. I believe I stated that in one of the first post but can't remember now. I'm very impressed with your determination and good attitude. Keep up the good work!
 

jamawieb

Well-known member
1,435
557
113
Location
Ripley/TN
You may already know this but the rings have a certain way they go on "up and down" and they are marked on the rings for the orintentiation.
 

Demoh

Member
217
26
18
Location
St Pete, FL
.... if you miss a day, you are left behind. ....
I hereby nominate this thread "fastest growing thread of the year" rofl... Most threads a few posts a day, this one is a few pages a day.

I will add that this thread is becoming the 1 stop shop for all engine work. It is compelling me to rebuild a waterlogged spare I have laying around.... No! bad!! I have enough projects. aua
 

USAMilRet

Member
390
15
18
Location
Tampa, Florida
I hereby nominate this thread "fastest growing thread of the year" rofl... Most threads a few posts a day, this one is a few pages a day.

I will add that this thread is becoming the 1 stop shop for all engine work. It is compelling me to rebuild a waterlogged spare I have laying around.... No! bad!! I have enough projects. aua
Yeah. And I have another 803a inbound.
 

USAMilRet

Member
390
15
18
Location
Tampa, Florida
I agree and posted this in one of the first few post of this thread. I still cant believe it broke the rocker instead of bending the push rod worse but if it was already weak, who knows.
This is why I suspect metal fatigue with the rocker arm.

The push rod is not bent. Rolls verynicely across mmy mini milll table and when I chucked it in my mini lathe, it spun true with no wobble and these are far from precision parts save the ball heads.
 
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