Adding two-stroke oil for lubricity - this study says NO.

[MarcusOReallyus]

I did some quick checking. Looks like Rotella still has good zinc content. This guy got the numbers directly from Rotella:

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/shell-rotella-t-162437.html

 

[rustystud]

Did anybody else read that synthetic motor oil will not hold lead in suspension?
If one would want to read these some may find enlightening information contained within. They are not in dated order.
It just looks like a black box but there is PDF files in there. I don't know why it does that.
View attachment 709694

View attachment 709693

View attachment 709692

View attachment 709695

Sorry Frank, but you took the "Troll" bait. None of the papers you posted gave any information backing up their claims. They just gave "Their" opinions. I'll stick with the report my buddy gave me. After all that is a real magazine for independent Gas station owners. Also I have my "own" observations. I have personally seen the damage the newer oils and fuels have done to older engines. I've repaired them ! Along with my fellow mechanics who can also testify to these truths. It is not "myth" if you see an engine come back after a few months with a destroyed camshaft. If it had just been one or two or even three engines that could be explained away, but hundreds ? Forgive me Frank, but that is just ridiculous !!! In my buddies Small gas station shop alone he had to replace over twenty camshafts in that first year. I don't know how many in the next couple of years he replaced. I was in a major shop so replaced many more. Then there is the whole injection pump fiasco with crappy fuels. 800 injection pumps failing in six months does say something.
In the end your going to believe what you want to believe. You probably never saw what I've seen happen so your life experience is different then mine. So go ahead and believe the "Trolls" . It's not a life or death decision.

 

[rustystud]

I did some quick checking. Looks like Rotella still has good zinc content. This guy got the numbers directly from Rotella:

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/shell-rotella-t-162437.html

I've always liked Rotella oil. A bit pricey but good.

 

[frank8003]

In post #59
All four attachments there support the claims and life experiences of machines needing higher levels of phosphorus and ZDDP...........

 

[Floridianson]

You're right. I have a 383 I built years ago and almost never drive...at any rate it has a not-that-agressive but modern profile flat tappet cam on it. I've run diesel oil in it (Rotella) from day one because it used to and hopefully still does have the additional additives. The oil pressure can be insane though until it warms up ~ 100 PSI at 2k RPM.

Believe years ago when the oil designed for cars lowered the zinc and the older / modified engines switched to Diesel oil.
I wonder how many military trucks are still just running Rotella and still putting on the miles.
Also switching cams to an aftermarket can be a problem but Comp cams would never say so.
So we know we need high zinc to brake in a new cam. Problem here on SS is most diesel trucks are broken in stock cam so what level is needed to maintain? Myself I will still just run Rotella t 4 that test say around 1200 ppm.
Guess bottom line is we don't know all variables in the he said she said I have a friend that wiped out a cam. Also I have seen mechanics at dealers / gas station that should not be mechanics. We need just the numbers that we need to maintain our flat tappet or older stuff we love.
Know it's more of a opinion but the guys has some cred's.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/

 

[rustystud]

Believe years ago when the oil designed for cars lowered the zinc and the older / modified engines switched to Diesel oil.
I wonder how many military trucks are still just running Rotella and still putting on the miles.
Also switching cams to an aftermarket can be a problem but Comp cams would never say so.
So we know we need high zinc to brake in a new cam. Problem here on SS is most diesel trucks are broken in stock cam so what level is needed to maintain? Myself I will still just run Rotella t 4 that test say around 1200 ppm.
Guess bottom line is we don't know all variables in the he said she said I have a friend that wiped out a cam. Also I have seen mechanics at dealers / gas station that should not be mechanics. We need just the numbers that we need to maintain our flat tappet or older stuff we love.
Know it's more of a opinion but the guys has some cred's.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/

I just finished reading this article. I would give it serious credence if he actually gave us his name. No were does he even mention it only "RAT540" . Also anyone who states that "anyone who disagrees with me is wrong" also is a major suspect in my opinion. I have said over and over I can be wrong, just show me the data. If someone says they are the "best" qualified to test an oils ability and never actually give us their credentials or even name raises a major flag !!! I can say I'm the president of "Shell Oil" but with out proof it means nothing.
So this article goes down into the "circular" file for me.
Just FYI, if anyone questions my "ASE Certified Master Mechanic" credentials I'll gladly send you an email with my credentials. Also my best friend (who owns his own service station) I often mention is also a "ASE Certified Master Mechanic".

 

[Floridianson]

You missed my point what would be the best numbers for the zinc content in diesel oil. Could you scan and post your last oil analysis. What were the levels in diesel oil before the EPA drop? We should start another thread on this as this is a side track of the OP's first question but till they say no O well.

 

[Drock]

I have a big picture opinion on this whole thing, and goes like this..... Oil companies make (billions & billions) of dollars off feeding the worlds addiction to fossil fuel & oils. And therefore own all of us starting with politicians, All the car companies, plastics companies, power companies, and the list trickles down infinitely. Basically all of civilized society depends on digging oil out of the ground. To think that you'll find ANY true, unbiased information about oil/fuel is to live in a fools paradise.

 

[frank8003]

This thread started as "Adding two-stroke oil for lubricity" then went to some other places.
The other places writings were all appreciated and worthwhile reading, off subject, but oh well.
In the parts about "who the heck said that" about this or that, I have attached a document about my favorite diesel engine subject, soot. Worth reading.

As always, we all know no matter what fuel we use it is always changing and whatever lubrications oil we use it is always changing. We know the best thing to do with vehicles is to use them as per design up at operating temperatures with all the engine liquids remaining in the proper places.
We also know we have to change the lube oil, the engines like it. My problem was the 5 gallon and two filters changing cost a bunch. My Deuce sat there a lot so I changed the oil and filters three times in 1900 miles in five years, big bucks. I used no additives with it, just the Rotella. $140 bucks times three.
I ran at one time 90% new motor oil in the fuel tank and my multifuel liked it and I used Rotella in the crankcase with anti-drainback filters so oil pressure came right up to my turbo.
I am just a consumer, others are the engineers and designers.
I do know to NOT put my diesel crankcase drain oil into my fuel tank.
I took that drain oil and scrapped it.
So there is the attached, lots of information about ZDDP and so on. Interesting.

View attachment soot and engine wear 05202008.pdf

 

[Floridianson]

Yea we got off topic. But as said we are here so I just for my own reasons would like to know what others feel is the max and min. amount of zinc our diesel need.
Rusty I never question your paper work and I have said it before I don't measure a man /woman buy the paper work. Yea if you are my Doctor or Pilot in command I would like to know you got paper. I do measure a mechanic if he takes his time, has the correct tools and treats my stuff like it is his.

 

[NormB]

Man, where's that popcorn emoji when you really need it?

Checked my stash, 25 gallons of RotellaT 15w-40 CJ4 and a half dozen of the ZDDP additive bottles.

With one HMMWV, annual driving just a few hundred miles, I should be good for a few years.

This has been entertaining, informative, frustrating, worrisome.

Pays your money, takes your chances. More reason for me to rationalize buying/rebuilding a "spare" engine just in case.

Thanks to all who've participated.

Norm

PS: afterthought. Since the main issue seems to be with flat lobe cam wear, anyone market roller lifters for these engines as a retrofit?

 

[rustystud]

You missed my point what would be the best numbers for the zinc content in diesel oil. Could you scan and post your last oil analysis. What were the levels in diesel oil before the EPA drop? We should start another thread on this as this is a side track of the OP's first question but till they say no O well.

I agree it would be a great idea to compare all our trucks and the oils and additives used in each. We could set-up a data base and keep track of all our trucks and oil changes. Then after a year or two compare results. I believe we have enough members here that our data base would be enough to verify the results of any benefits of using or not using any additives.

 

[Drock]

I agree it would be a great idea to compare all our trucks and the oils and additives used in each. We could set-up a data base and keep track of all our trucks and oil changes. Then after a year or two compare results. I believe we have enough members here that our data base would be enough to verify the results of any benefits of using or not using any additives.

Now that I agree with! The only reliable data would be from us the consumers.

 

[rustystud]

This thread started as "Adding two-stroke oil for lubricity" then went to some other places.
The other places writings were all appreciated and worthwhile reading, off subject, but oh well.
In the parts about "who the heck said that" about this or that, I have attached a document about my favorite diesel engine subject, soot. Worth reading.

As always, we all know no matter what fuel we use it is always changing and whatever lubrications oil we use it is always changing. We know the best thing to do with vehicles is to use them as per design up at operating temperatures with all the engine liquids remaining in the proper places.
We also know we have to change the lube oil, the engines like it. My problem was the 5 gallon and two filters changing cost a bunch. My Deuce sat there a lot so I changed the oil and filters three times in 1900 miles in five years, big bucks. I used no additives with it, just the Rotella. $140 bucks times three.
I ran at one time 90% new motor oil in the fuel tank and my multifuel liked it and I used Rotella in the crankcase with anti-drainback filters so oil pressure came right up to my turbo.
I am just a consumer, others are the engineers and designers.
I do know to NOT put my diesel crankcase drain oil into my fuel tank.
I took that drain oil and scrapped it.
So there is the attached, lots of information about ZDDP and so on. Interesting.

View attachment 709938

Frank, that is a great report on the damage soot does to an engine. I've known that for years since working at IHC . IHC added "LuberFiners" to all their over the road semi-trucks just for this reason. These where the 5 gallon ones, not the little tweeky units.
I also agree with this reports analysis about valve train wear. I have modified my engines to have a greater amount of oil going to the rockers and valves ever since my old Chevy lost oil to the rockers back in 1977. One set back has been the amount of oil burned due to leaking valve stems, but with the advance in materials for the valve seals that has been almost eliminated.
If you take the valve covers off any of my engines be prepared for a oil bath ! What I usually do is drill out the cam bearing to rocker arm oil galley. On almost all engines this is a small 1/8" hole. I usually drill it out to 1/4" or 5/16" . I haven't done this mod to my deuce yet. Though I plan to when I install the heads I'm having built up. I remember one engineer I talk to about this. He was "aghast" that I had modified the oil supply ! He was convinced I would lose so much oil pressure that I would damage my engine severely. The fact is on all the engines I modified only a few had any pressure drop. The pressure regulator always made up for the extra volume of oil needed. Except for one engine. That engine needed a new oil pump anyway.

 

[rustystud]

Yea we got off topic. But as said we are here so I just for my own reasons would like to know what others feel is the max and min. amount of zinc our diesel need.
Rusty I never question your paper work and I have said it before I don't measure a man /woman buy the paper work. Yea if you are my Doctor or Pilot in command I would like to know you got paper. I do measure a mechanic if he takes his time, has the correct tools and treats my stuff like it is his.

I'm sorry I missed your point completely. I agree, we need to find out what the amount of zinc/pho is needed in our engines . But like Drock said, there is no way we will find out the truth from any oil company or even engine manufacturer. They don't want us to find out the truth. Like I said earlier, we could try and find out ourselves.

 

[rustystud]

Man, where's that popcorn emoji when you really need it?

Checked my stash, 25 gallons of RotellaT 15w-40 CJ4 and a half dozen of the ZDDP additive bottles.

With one HMMWV, annual driving just a few hundred miles, I should be good for a few years.

This has been entertaining, informative, frustrating, worrisome.

Pays your money, takes your chances. More reason for me to rationalize buying/rebuilding a "spare" engine just in case.

Thanks to all who've participated.

Norm

PS: afterthought. Since the main issue seems to be with flat lobe cam wear, anyone market roller lifters for these engines as a retrofit?

I actually looked into this a few years ago. I called "Tracey Varns" who runs a modified tractor in the tractor pulls. He originally used the Multifuel engine. Then he started modifying them until now his engines put out 5,000HP !!! Of course he makes his own engine blocks out of a solid chunk of steel ! He told me they tried a lot of ways to get a roller cam into that engine, but none worked. Now making his own blocks he has a roller cam in it.

 

[Floridianson]

I'm sorry I missed your point completely. I agree, we need to find out what the amount of zinc/pho is needed in our engines . But like Drock said, there is no way we will find out the truth from any oil company or even engine manufacturer. They don't want us to find out the truth. Like I said earlier, we could try and find out ourselves.

No worries. Yes I do agree that the days that you could just grab any oil and run it are gone. Because of the Web we can discuss, gain info. It is funny as per that article from Rat I am switching my oils in my GMC 3500.
As for the M915A2 with 60 series Detroit. OHC and ceramic rollers no worries there.

 

[NormB]

I agree it would be a great idea to compare all our trucks and the oils and additives used in each. We could set-up a data base and keep track of all our trucks and oil changes. Then after a year or two compare results. I believe we have enough members here that our data base would be enough to verify the results of any benefits of using or not using any additives.

Confounding variables.

The basis of scientific analysis is control the variables then pick one you’d like to focus on to see how it changes under changing conditions.

All of us are starting with old - in some cases 30 to 50 years old - engines of dubious service and maintenance (Hey, private Snuffy, did you get the oil changed in those 15 HMMWVs like I asked you? Of course Snuffy got to 12 of them, had to go find filters, got sidetracked, forgot, the trucks were needed that day for an op so he just checked that box and let ‘em go), operating conditions were different in Florida panhandle, Texas, Montana, Alaska, So Cal with respect to heat, humidity, salt water, fuel additives, original break in, highway speeds vs a life spent tooling around base with the ever-widening bottom of the base commander taking up the right seat.

Or was your engine one that got run b*lls to the wall in desert heat, sand, silica dust that got past the air filter every day with the fan running 90% duty cycle midday.

65 on the highway? Hauling max load? Abuse none of us (save those who can afford to buy these by the dozen at auction and scrap one or two without loss) would think of doing to “our babies” on a daily or even once a year mud run basis?

Then after years of this, they got parked, sat for many more years on end with no maintenance, acids in the oils eating at the internals until one of us rescued the beast, changed the oils, the S3 box, glow plugs, added ZDDP for insurance and fired the thing right up.

what kind of reproducible results can come from this?

Metal wear in the engine? Was this analysis done prior to the first oil change in ten years as a basis for comparison?

Then you got your internal components coming from multiple manufacturers and, while held to the strictest MILSPEC guidelines, there are small variances in metal alloy uniformity, machining, fit and finish all of which can concatenate to affect wear, tear and longevity.

I’m reminded of the old Lada and Yugo factory stories where soviet citizens said never to buy a car made on a Monday or a Friday. Monday the factory workers were too hung over to pay attention while on Friday they were preoccupied with the weekend and getting into the condition that would lead to their Monday hangover and cut corners to meet quotas.

Total Quality Management is great in theory, but...


So data gathered from any such prospective analysis could at best show trend lines- maybe - but I don’t think it would be definitive in any sense.

I’m sure I missed some things; field expedient repairs, engine rebuilds, oil pump/water cooler failures, other things that could affect engine performance, wear and usable life while still meeting minimums for reuse. My engine has a tag on it showing it was rebuilt (heads, if not the entire engine) in 2009 at Ft. Lewis, WA (for a truck that spent its life in North Carolina). How does that kind of “reset” affect such a data base?

Would that we could ALL start with pristine, fresh, blueprinted engines with break-in oil and uniformly controllable environmental and operating variables from which to collect meaningful data.

NB


PS: Thanks for the note on the roller lifters. Funny, I poked around on that hot rod forum and elsewhere and was under the impression that pretty much any engine built after 1990 had them. I guess not.

 

[frank8003]

Looking at my research I found this blurb, You can have it.
View attachment ZDDP + HTHS lube oil Driven Joe Gibbs pro 11142015.docx

 

[MarcusOReallyus]

Confounding variables.

The basis of scientific analysis is control the variables then pick one you’d like to focus on to see how it changes under changing conditions.

All of us are starting with old - in some cases 30 to 50 years old - engines of dubious service and maintenance .....

Then after years of this, they got parked, sat for many more years on end with no maintenance, acids in the oils eating at the internals until one of us rescued the beast, changed the oils, the S3 box, glow plugs, added ZDDP for insurance and fired the thing right up.

what kind of reproducible results can come from this?

Bingo.

If you don't control the variables, you don't get data, you get noise.

There's no way to control the variables, so there's no way to get anything but noise.

The good news is, there's one thing even worse than noise:

Thinking that noise is data. That mistake is all over the Internet.