Converting pto driven equipment to hydraulic and the decent into madness!!

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gentrysgarage

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There are a few hydraulic threads on here involving some involving steering, winches and dump hoist. I read them all a few times,,,and sometimes the more you read the more confusing it gets…how much more so with the hydraulics where even the manufacturers are even trying to muddy the pond with numbers that don’t correlate with another manufacture and differing quality and much different performance it seems from the same design and capacity.

Originally, I was trying to see how I could get the hydraulics and equipment I had on hand could work together in the simplest fashion. Namely I have built my parts pile up to include the following: a ZF engine driven pump, a Ross HF 54 power steering gearbox, HydroMax master cylinder booster (hydroboost’s older and more muscular brother), Ford F550/Buss B700 disc brake, a WWII Garwood winch and an equally old WWII PTO driven Anthony hoist. I had a few options that quickly fell to the wayside.

First let’s see what was installed on the M35A3s…most info sourced here is from mudpuppy, grigeltaube and many, many others members contributing.

From Erik’s we get that the M35A3 engine driven hydraulic pump had the following specs:

PK13-16 ASCL NSN 43200-14422895 (for the Cat 3116)

12 GPM@1200RPM 2.46 c.i. 3000 psi Continuous 2 bolt flange/11 tooth max RPM 2500

From mudpuppy we get the M35A3 winch motor with the following specs:

RCSK16731 M30-106-7AS NSN 43200-1-441-7669 or 43200-01-441-7669
10.6 c.i. reverse displacement

The M35A3 pressure relief valve was set to 1750-1800 psi. A few guys have said that some were field shimmed to 2000 psi.


Let’s examine what I have on hand or on order:

Engine compartment:

ZF 7674955343 engine mounted 4.5 GPM CCW rotation 5.5-6.6 GPM @ 2400 psi (different sources different GPMs for the same puma. From a Bluebird bus.

Ross HF-54 steering gearbox.5 GPM @ 1500psi, max flow 6 GPM, increase GPM for steering assist cylinder based on size

HydroMax Master cylinder 3.2-5.0 GPM and a minimum 1000 psi

Transmission:

Chelsea 442 ZXUESX-W3XK PTO with 26/20 gear ratio SAE B 2 bolt flange. QUESTION: The comparable Muncie PTO is Opposite rotation so I would need a clockwise pump correct? NOTE: Forget finding rotation on the Chelsea webpage!

Bed/frame:

Prince SV 4 way spring center spool valve with solenoid/electric control rated at 12 GPM 3000 psi
Garwood 2U512 a WWII 10,000 lb pto winch

Anthony pto driven dump hoist that I have given up on using due to the price I would have to pay for a variable displacement pump to run both the winch and it.

In Part 2 we shall start our descent into the madness of hydraulic manufacturers wormhole of specifications that are all over the place and connecting the dots.
 

gentrysgarage

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Part 2a What is needed for winch and what has been documented.

REMEMBER: In hydraulics PSI=Power(force) and GPM=RPM(speed)

This is where things get blurry, so lets start off with a given (from gringeltaube I think, I've got 4 different notebooks with different info...yeah, blame it on my ADD..LOL!)

Anyhow to get 30 fpm (4th wrap I think) you need 247 ft/lbs of torque and 516 rpm.


O
n another note I have 145 ft/lbs of torque on the input shaft (the formula I have under it is 2343<what is this number>divided by 12=195 for starting(can't read it just guessing what I wrote) and 800 rpm?

SO which one is the correct figure????


EDIT: I am sizing the motor to 247 ft/lbs and 516 rpm....unless some one can prove otherwise...If you can please do before I spend my preciously small Pesos!

Also more questions on the MileMarke hydraulic winches on HMMWV have almost the same speed rating as the M35A3 31 FPM the 12,000 has a 19.5 ci motor (which is twice the displacement of the M35A3!) and the 10,000 has a 17.9 ci....and they only require a minimuim of 3.5 GPM and 1500 psi AS an FYI the NSN for the motor is 994-97-50071 and 2540-01-496-001

SO I think we need this nailed down before we size our pump. So if anybody can correct this and maybe give me a formula to sizing the pump based on the requirements of the system! Thanks in Advance!




PS I will have a few questions for you davidb56 when I get to the hoist section Thanks
A few pictures to keep your attention!
IMG_2777.JPG IMG_2790.JPG
 

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davidb56

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I removed the air conditioning pump and put the hydraulic pump in its place on my 460 Ford. Hydraulic motors need a whole lot more gpm than cylinders.....unless you're not in a hurry. IMG_0283.JPGIMG_0285.JPGhahaha
 

glcaines

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The easiest thing to do is buy an A3. I have an A3 with winch and it is fantastic. Very simple to use and trouble free to date. I've also had an A2 with winch which worked fine, but the A3 hydraulic winch beats the PTO driven winch hands down.
 

davidb56

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The easiest thing to do is buy an A3. I have an A3 with winch and it is fantastic. Very simple to use and trouble free to date. I've also had an A2 with winch which worked fine, but the A3 hydraulic winch beats the PTO driven winch hands down.
I bought a A2C for 10K, and put a 1100$ Sherpa winch on it, but I'd rather have a A3....It wasn't in my price range and way too far to recover.
 

davidb56

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I know nothing about military PTO and Hydraulic winches. I do know that you must have a "braking" system somewhere on it because most hydraulic motors will not hold a load. you can lock out both lines and the drain on a motor and if you're hoisting something, it will drop back down. So you had better get the specs off the Military hydraulic winch and see how they accomplish "braking" on the winch.
 

davidb56

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Part 2a What is needed for winch and what has been documented.

REMEMBER: In hydraulics PSI=Power(force) and GPM=RPM(speed)

This is where things get blurry, so lets start off with a given (from gringeltaube I think, I've got 4 different notebooks with different info...yeah, blame it on my ADD..LOL!)

Anyhow to get 30 fpm (4th wrap I think) you need 247 ft/lbs of torque and 516 rpm.


On another note I have 145 ft/lbs of torque on the input shaft (the formula I have under it is 2343<what is this number>divided by 12=195 for starting(can't read it just guessing what I wrote) and 800 rpm?

SO which one is the correct figure????

Also more questions on the MileMarke hydraulic winches on HMMWV have almost the same speed rating as the M35A3 31 FPM the 12,000 has a 19.5 ci motor (which is twice the displacement of the M35A3!) and the 10,000 has a 17.9 ci....and they only require a minimuim of 3.5 GPM and 1500 psi AS an FYI the NSN for the motor is 994-97-50071 and 2540-01-496-001

SO I think we need this nailed down before we size our pump. So if anybody can correct this and maybe give me a formula to sizing the pump based on the requirements of the system! Thanks in Advance!




PS I will have a few questions for you davidb56 when I get to the hoist section Thanks
A few pictures to keep your attention!
View attachment 790406 IMG_2790.JPG
theres something real wrong here...( it could be me) but If you have a motor with a 17.9ci/rev displacement, at 3.5 gpm, your speed would only be 45 rpms. Also you had better find out Exactly how many rpm's you require for your drum speed, and what the reduction ratio is, so you can figure out your torque required. You may not get the speed you desire with what motors are available. Is the Hydraulic and PTO winches the same except for the driving mechanism?
 

davidb56

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so before you can size the pump, you need to know the torque required, which is determined on the winch reduction gear ratio and Physics (drum size and load) and the speed which you would like the drum to travel. the speed can be controlled by a flow control valve. the pressure (2000-3000psi) has to match the design of the motor or you may not get enough torque to winch the 10K. the pump displacement has to be enough to provide the drum speed you need. I would roughly guess if your motor rpm is 517, you would need at least 12-18 gpm by the motors Ive seen. disclaimer...Im often full of $hit.
 

gentrysgarage

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I removed the air conditioning pump and put the hydraulic pump in its place on my 460 Ford. Hydraulic motors need a whole lot more gpm than cylinders.....unless you're not in a hurry. hahaha

Davidb56, I am curious what dump hoist did you get. I am leaning towards the 3000 or 6000 lb "trailer" kit advertised everywhere (just with different paint jobs.



The easiest thing to do is buy an A3. I have an A3 with winch and it is fantastic. Very simple to use and trouble free to date. I've also had an A2 with winch which worked fine, but the A3 hydraulic winch beats the PTO driven winch hands down.
Yep it would, Thanks for the pto/hydro real world review

why would you need a variable displacement pump to run both your hoist and winch? Is flow a issue?
OK that's a GREAT question and one that I actually have an answer for! LOL! The motor for the winch only needs 2000 psi and a normal hoist cylinder needs 3000 to 3500 psi. So if I was to size one pump to do both I would have to dump the 1000 psi through a pressure relief valve back into the tank. This would generate alot of heat. In my notes I have a note that says that 1000psi over pressure would equate to 100*F plus the temperature of the oil and this would be well past the general 180*F recommended max oil temp. There are 2 solutions...increase the size of the oil reservoir really not an option for me as frame space is at a premium, add a cooler which adds complexity and needing the space to put it or a variable displacement motor.

theres something real wrong here...( it could be me) but If you have a motor with a 17.9ci/rev displacement, at 3.5 gpm, your speed would only be 45 rpms. Also you had better find out Exactly how many rpm's you require for your drum speed, and what the reduction ratio is, so you can figure out your torque required. You may not get the speed you desire with what motors are available. Is the Hydraulic and PTO winches the same except for the driving mechanism?

I thinks so also, milemarker only listed the the minimuim requirements and I was hoping someone with a HMMWV would chime in with some REAL specs


so before you can size the pump, you need to know the torque required, which is determined on the winch reduction gear ratio and Physics (drum size and load) and the speed which you would like the drum to travel. the speed can be controlled by a flow control valve. the pressure (2000-3000psi) has to match the design of the motor or you may not get enough torque to winch the 10K. the pump displacement has to be enough to provide the drum speed you need. I would roughly guess if your motor rpm is 517, you would need at least 12-18 gpm by the motors Ive seen. disclaimer...Im often full of $hit.
Yes as my second post I am looking for someone to correct the torque needed to operate the winch is it 145 or 247? Both numbers were sourced on this SS and one is wrong. Hoping gringeltaube speaks up on this...I think he was one of the guys and I would bet on his figure being right!



I will check it out Thanks!
 

davidb56

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since you haven't bought the winch motor yet, get one that operates at 3000 psi. they are more available than 2000 psi anyways. the cost is the same, and often lower. BTW, as you know, the higher psi gives the motor more torque, if its rated for 3000.
 

davidb56

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I built my own dump mechanism. If I were you, I'd get one off of CL. I would get at least a 10-12K pound capacity...minimum. Mine is made from telescoping rams that I had and really needs 3000 psi to dump a few tons. Dont undersize it.
 

gentrysgarage

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Thanks for the repiles davidc56, I am just worried about the heat and oil breakdown. but hopefully I can find a motor for the winch and pump that are compatable. Question/confirmation for the gallery, the reason the psi seems to be limited to 2000 is to protect the winch, correct?
 

davidb56

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Thanks for the repiles davidc56, I am just worried about the heat and oil breakdown. but hopefully I can find a motor for the winch and pump that are compatable. Question/confirmation for the gallery, the reason the psi seems to be limited to 2000 is to protect the winch, correct?
some hydraulic systems only have 1800-2000 psi Pumps, so some motors are designed to have their peak torque (psi) at that pressure. It doesn't protect the winch. if you put a 2000 psi motor with 1000fbs torque, the winch isn't protected. I wouldn't begin to worry too much about heat build up unless you were running the winch for a long time, and have a undersized tank. I think there should be a 3/1 ratio for tank size. I run my plow pump only when making adjustments and flip the clutch switch off when I dont need it to run, because I'm limited on tank size (4.5 gal) . You will probably be in the 36-50 gallon tank size like my drill I built. It has a 16 gpm pump and a relief valve that sometimes has to bypass. It doesn't get too hot....maybe 120-140F.
 

davidb56

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Thanks for the repiles davidc56, I am just worried about the heat and oil breakdown. but hopefully I can find a motor for the winch and pump that are compatable. Question/confirmation for the gallery, the reason the psi seems to be limited to 2000 is to protect the winch, correct?
Most motors have a industry standard flange sizes. you won't have any problem finding one for under 300$.
 

gentrysgarage

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Got a GREAT BIG headache with all these calcutaions....but my pain is definetly your gain as I found some good calculator websites for ya

Womack Machine
Surplus Center

I had a third one that had all the formulas written down, but these 2 will get you there!

So I am starting with the motor as once that is settled I think the pump would be easier to suite.

On another note the Prince SV valve that I am using (due to the solienoid and manual operation) is advertised as 12 GPM by Prince, but Surplus Center lists it as 12 GPM normal and 16 GPM max...this gives me a little more breathing room but I will limit my calcs to 12 and 14 to be safe.

The speed calculation is easy as it's just (GPM X 231)/516 (target RPM)

The one I am working on now is the Torque formula. I will post my numbers when I am closer.
 

gentrysgarage

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From https://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com
Sizing hydraulic motors

As an example of how to calculate hydraulic motor size to match an application, consider the following: an application calls for 5 hp at 3,000 rpm, with an available supply pressure of 3,000 psi, and a return line pressure of 100 psi; the pressure differential is 2,900 psi.

The theoretical torque required is calculated from:

T = (63,0252 3 horsepower)/N

where:
T is torque, lb-in., and
N is speed, rpm.
For the condition T = 105 lb-in.

Motor displacement is calculated as:

D = 2π T ÷ ΔPeM

where:
D is displacement, in.3/rev
ΔP is pressure differential, psi, and
eM is mechanical efficiency, %.
If mechanical efficiency is 88%, then D is 0.258 in.3/rev.

Calculating the required flow:

Q = DN/231eV,

where: Q is flow, gpm, and
eV is volumetric efficiency, %.
If volumetric efficiency is 93%, then Q is 3.6 gpm.

Pressure in these equations is the difference between inlet and outlet pressure. Thus, any pressure at the outlet port reduces torque output of a fluid motor.

The efficiency factor for most motors will be fairly constant when operating from half- to full-rated pressure, and over the middle portion of the rated speed range. As speed nears either extreme, efficiency decreases.

Lower operating pressures result in lower overall efficiencies because of fixed internal rotating losses that are characteristic of any fluid motor. Reducing displacement from maximum in variable-displacement motors also reduces the overall efficiency.
 

gentrysgarage

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Came across this and seems to be an interesting setup
Description:
GARWOOD / HOLAN M818 135 HYDRAULIC WINCH FROM A FORD C800. THE HYDRAULIC WINCH IS FROM THE M800 SERIES AND COMES WITH THE DRIVE PUMP. OVERALL DIMENSIONS MEASURES AT 68 1/2 INCHES LONG BY 20 3/4 INCHES TALL, BY 19 INCHES WIDE. THE DRUM LENGTH IS 17 3/4 INCHES, DRUM DIAMETER IS 8 INCHES, AND THE SPOOL WIRE MEASURES 1/2 INCH THICK.
1974-GARWOD-M818-135-Winches-3.jpg1974-GARWOD-M818-135-Winches-2.jpg1974-GARWOD-M818-135-Winches-1.jpg1974-GARWOD-M818-135-Winches-4.jpg1974-GARWOD-M818-135-Winches-5.jpg1974-GARWOD-M818-135-Winches-6.jpg
 
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