CUCV 1986 M1008 - In a Real Pickle - Bad Heads - Need Advice

[ken]

Do you know what end you have? Could the broke piece still be in the bore aginist the camshaft? If so, then slowly rotate the crankshaft by hand with a socket on the harmonic balancer bolt. Then see if the cam lobe will push it out of the bore. If not, then if I was in your shoes I would pull the oil pan. I say that because I would hate to worry about it coming up when you hit a speed bump or off road. Then getting hit/caught by the crankshaft and busting something. It's too big to get caught in the oil pump pickup screen. But small enough to get itself between a crank weight or a connecting rod and the block. You will need to unbolt the motor mount and lift the engine for the oil pan to clear the cross member. And don't forget to rotate the vacume pump away from the firewall. Before you lift the engine. Or it will hit and damage it. (don't ask how I know that).

 

[Commander5993]

Do you know what end you have? Could the broke piece still be in the bore aginist the camshaft? If so, then slowly rotate the crankshaft by hand with a socket on the harmonic balancer bolt. Then see if the cam lobe will push it out of the bore. If not, then if I was in your shoes I would pull the oil pan. I say that because I would hate to worry about it coming up when you hit a speed bump or off road. Then getting hit/caught by the crankshaft and busting something. It's too big to get caught in the oil pump pickup screen. But small enough to get itself between a crank weight or a connecting rod and the block. You will need to unbolt the motor mount and lift the engine for the oil pan to clear the cross member. And don't forget to rotate the vacume pump away from the firewall. Before you lift the engine. Or it will hit and damage it. (don't ask how I know that).

I am assuming it was the pump end of the shaft. I am also assuming it must have broke the first time I cranked the engine over to try to prime the fuel system about a week ago. After which I stopped, due to seeing the coolant leak and oil leak, which I had to then pull the radiator and have it repaired etc. Thats why I didn't realize I wasn't getting fuel until yesterday after I got the oil leak fixed and put the radiator back in. So I'm guessing I've cranked the engine several times since it broke. I would think that it wouldn't be still up at the crank would it? I did try to stick a pen magnet in the passageway after I got this half out, but it didn't pull anything out.

Yeah, I really don't want to be worried about it later down the road... so I guess I'm going to pull the pan.
What is the best way to lift the engine? I obviously can't jack it up under the oil pan... I really don't have a way to lift from the top side, but I guess I could rig up something.

 

[98G]

Yeah, its broke. One end is rough, other end is machined.
Here is a couple pics of the 3.5" piece that fell out when I removed the fuel pump mounting plate:

View attachment 697175 View attachment 697176


So.... where would the other 1.75" piece have went... would it have dropped into the oil pan?

What would you guys recommend...
Should I remove the pan and try to find it?
Or would it hurt anything to just stay in the oil pan?
I wouldn't think it could get back up into the engine...??

Take a good strong magnet and stick to the bottom of the oil pan . That'll anchor the broken piece beyond possibility of moving. Or you may get lucky and maneuver it out the drain....

 

[Commander5993]

Take a good strong magnet and stick to the bottom of the oil pan . That'll anchor the broken piece beyond possibility of moving. Or you may get lucky and maneuver it out the drain....

LoL I thought about sticking the magnet to the pan already... it is tempting, be a lot easier than pulling the pan.
I also tried to see if the piece that did come out would fit through the oil pan drain hole.... unfortunately it won't, its just a bit to big. So no chance on getting the piece out of the pan.

 

[ken]

Its too big to fit through the oil drain hole. To lift the engine, Get a block of wood and a bottle jack. Place the wood under the pulley/balancer. Then jack the engine up there. Drop the pan first. Then push the engine up just enough to clear the pan. And don't forget to remove the fan shroud.

 

[cucvrus]

I changed many rear main seals on CUCV's I never had to jack the engine up. I did support the frame so the axle hung a bit lower. But I never removed any motor mount bolts. Just saying. I want to keep it simple. Do as you wish. With all this work I would have pulled the engine. And if you are going to pull the pan may as well replace the rear main seal. Good luck. Have a great day.

 

[ken]

I guess my motor mounts were sagging. I couldn't get the pan to clear. That truck was lifted so I didn't have a axle clearance problem. I hope his luck changes. It's fighting him every step of the way.

 

[Commander5993]

Ok.... update and a new mystery....

With another brothers help, we got it all taken apart and everything, and was finally able to get the pan pulled tonight.
One thing, I don't see any cracks in the webbing, the oil pump screen is clean, and everything looks ok.


But the mystery is... the other piece of the fuel pump pushrod is not in the pan

It's late, so we're quitting for the night... I'll look the engine back over in the morning, maybe crank it over by hand and see if I can find/hear anything.

 

[Commander5993]

I hope his luck changes. It's fighting him every step of the way.

Me Too!!

 

[cucvrus]

I would tend to think that the broken piece would still be up in the hole. Have you looked up that hole? Use a mirror. I have heard of these rods breaking when someone changed a fuel pump but fail to see how. That may explain why some people say they had such a hard time getting a new fuel pump to seat into place. But I don't see how that piece could have gone anywhere once the rod broke. I think it is in the hole. I place a small wager on it. Good Luck. Report back. Please.

 

[ken]

I would think it's still in the hole too. But it the broken end was on the pump side, Maybe there are small pieces in the top of the fuel pump???

 

[Commander5993]

But it the broken end was on the pump side, Maybe there are small pieces in the top of the fuel pump???

I'm not sure I follow?? The pushrod just pushes on the fuel pump arm, right?

 

[cucvrus]

While I was out in monsoon weather today. I took a look see at a 6.2 diesel CUCV engine I had for parts. i looked up in the push rod bore. I am convinced it is still stuck in the hole. The mud daubers had their way with this block. And it looks like a fly chose it as his final resting place. But I see no way for the piece to fall out. I stick with the lodged in the hole diagnosis. Maybe a good magnet. Good Luck. Please report back.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mud_dauber

 

[85CUCVtom]

If you turned the engine over wouldn't the cam possibly kick the broken piece out?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cucvrus]

Maybe. But if it is in the bore it could be a bit tight. I think a magnet would pull it out. Worth a look see and an easy try.

 

[Commander5993]

Ok, heres this mornings update:

With the engine in the truck, there is literally no way I can see into the port. Not from the top, nor from the bottom (Just another reason that if I had to do it over again, I would have pulled this engine... as I probably wouldn't have this problem in the first place, and would have been done with it weeks ago...)

I tried to feel up the passageway by hand again, and all I can feel is empty space.
So I took a flat blade screwdriver and it does hit something, moving it around it does feel like a rough surface, which is what I would expect from the broken end.

I cranked the engine over by hand, while a friend of mine held the screwdriver against this rough surface. As I cranked it over it went in, then it came back out.

So Yes Cucvrus, I think you are correct, I'm pretty sure at this point it is still in the passageway.

Now the problem is how to get it out... I have a magnet, but it is apparently to large to fit into the passageway.
Cranking the engine over by hand isn't going to kick it out, and I don't want to crank the engine by key with no oil it in.
I really don't want to put the pan back on, until I get this out, just in case.

I thought about air pressure, but don't see anywhere to get behind it...

Any ideas?
I may just have to go buy a smaller pen magnet that will fit, then I wonder if it will be strong enough to pull it out.

 

[cucvrus]

You need a dental mirror or such a devise to help you look around corners. I would pull oil in it and pull all 8 glow plugs. I would spray WD 40 or something similar into the hole and crank and look. It is there. Report back. Removing the glow plugs helps the starter turn faster and is easier on everything. I will be here in and out. I wish you luck. Get a smaller magnet. You need it.

 

[Commander5993]

Yep, I did need a smaller magnet Cucvrus. As my "pen" magnet was just too big.

I knew I used to have some rare earth magnets (neodymium magnets) from some projects back some time ago, but couldn't remember any that would be small enough.
But I was able to find one about the size of a small watch battery (although I don't remember having one that small... but my memory is not good anyway ).
However, I had to make sure that whatever I attached it to, that it would stay on it, and not pull off onto the broken piece of pushrod, so I used some strips of duck tape and and taped it to the flat end of a punch.

So i put the punch into the passageway, felt it hit, and it pulled the broken piece of the pushrod right out.






I don't even understand why it broke in the first place... But now that I got it out, all I have to do is get the oil pan and all the rest back together, which I didn't have to take off in the first place.... but thats ok, I needed to inspect the lower anyway, check the oil pump screen, etc. Then get the new pushrod installed, with grease this time to hold it in there. And get the new fuel pump back on.

I may go ahead and replace the rear main, don't think its leaking or anything, but I'm already this far in.

This time when I get everything reassembled, I'm going to crank the engine over by hand, before I ever hit the starter...

Anyway, Thanks Guys once again for all the help and input
Will post when I get it back together... and hopefully running this time!

 

[cucvrus]

I should have upped the wager I placed on my diagnosis. But glad to hear you got it. That thing on the bottom of your posts. About the big hammer. I think it is time to get rid of the hammer and put silk gloves on and be more surgical. I seldom need to hammer things or force them into place. Force is an enemy of mechanical work. Finesse is more useful during assembly work. I am glad you got it. I was sure you would. I was a day late with my pictures. but I was just watching from the stands. Have a great day. do the seal. You are 95% there. If the pan was NOT off I would not do it.

 

[Commander5993]

Now the new fuel rod doesn't want to fit...
Just as SS member german m1008 said on my original Parts Wanted ad the other day, that the civy part might be just a little too "wide", and may have to be sanded down.

I tried to put the new one in, without grease first, then with grease, just to make sure it would fit etc. And it wouldn't go in but just the very very tip where it is tapered at the end.

So, I certainly did want to sand by hand, and I don't have a lathe, so the only other thing I thought about was to put the push rod in a drill, and then run it back and forth while spinning it on a piece of sandpaper. Then take it out and flip it and do the other end.

While trying to see if it would fit, a couple times what little did go in, I had a hard time getting it back out.

I should have used my dial calipers to measure both the old and new pushrods before I did anything, but didn't think about it at the time.
The specs for the new one was .499"
When I finally mic the new one after sanding it multiple times, it was still .495"

I measured the original and it was .493" on both ends.

I've now got one end of the new pushrod to slide in, although its still a bit tight.
The other end is still a hair to big, it goes in about 3/4" at most, but I thought I was going to have to get pliers or something to pull it out. But after several minutes of wiggling it back and forth by hand, it finally came out.


They are at least the same length... so I guess the machinist got that part right...