Dodge 230 L6 Question...

[mobiledab]

Took delivery of a 1951 M37 today and have a question about the engine head bolts. Most pictures posted of M37 engine compartments I see show head bolts that appear absent of threaded holes in the cap. Also, a lift fixture is present. The passenger side of my engine has multiple head bolts with what appear to be threaded holes in the cap. These bolts are also present in other locations of the head, but the majority are on the passenger side. The engine lift bracket is absent, there is a 12-volt Autolite distributor (that indicates the oil pump is from a civilian engine), the coil bracket is from a civilian engine, the intake and exhaust manifolds appear "different" (is there a difference between military and civilian engines?), and the only remnants of paint on the engine are orange (Chrysler Orange possibly?). I may be paranoid, but wonder if there's been an engine change out. The odometer reads 14,000ish and there is an ORD overhaul plate on the dash that I can't read without some work (tomorrow). Finally, I don't remember this type of bolt on M37 and M43s I've owned in the past; however, I do remember these bolts on the engine of my 1946 WDX Power Wagon. I am not a Mopar expert. Anyone have an opinion? Thank you in advance!

David

 

[Canadianz]

It isn’t uncommon to find the engine has been replaced at some point. You could always look at the engine model number that is stamped on the front left of the motor. If you can tell us that, it shouldn’t be hard to figure out what you have. The original would be a T245.

 

[ODAddict]

Photos are always helpful. Generally, GM engines used orange paint; Dodge used silver paint.

As I recall, on the USA variant, there are only three head bolts with the threaded head. This allows the addition of a short screw (bolt) to attach vent line clips.

The lift hook is standard, attached to the head with the head bolts, and located near the oil filter.

The Canadian variant has some differences, including a slightly larger displacement engine. The manuals are quite good overall with the specifics.

 

[msgjd]

i believe your engine has been changed out ... as others have said here, the block number will tell all.. Orange engine paint is common under hoods of original mopar "muscle" between 1964 and 1974 .. Whoever rebuilt or installed your engine apparently liked the color

 

[G744]

The original T245 engine will have a bolt-on oil filler pipe, not one just pressed into a hole. Quite unique...

 

[mobiledab]

It isn’t uncommon to find the engine has been replaced at some point. You could always look at the engine model number that is stamped on the front left of the motor. If you can tell us that, it shouldn’t be hard to figure out what you have. The original would be a T245.

I understand, and it is what it is--so long as I can get it running. Turns free, but has not been started in years. I will look today to see if "T245" is visible. Going to need a good wire brush for this engine! Thank you!

 

[mobiledab]

Photos are always helpful. Generally, GM engines used orange paint; Dodge used silver paint.

As I recall, on the USA variant, there are only three head bolts with the threaded head. This allows the addition of a short screw (bolt) to attach vent line clips.

The lift hook is standard, attached to the head with the head bolts, and located near the oil filter.

The Canadian variant has some differences, including a slightly larger displacement engine. The manuals are quite good overall with the specifics.

Did not have time to take pictures yesterday, but will do so today and post. My experience regarding the vent line clips is same as yours. Absence of lift hook is what I noticed originally, so that prompted me to scrutinize everything. What I should have looked at but did not was oil filler and dipstick! As mentioned I will go out today and get pictures to post. Thank you!

 

[mobiledab]

i believe your engine has been changed out ... as others have said here, the block number will tell all.. Orange engine paint is common on original mopar muscle between 1964 and 1974 .. Whoever rebuilt or installed your engine apparently liked the color

Worked at a Dodge dealership parts department in the mid 1970s and remember seeing the orange (more red than orange to me) and being perplexed. What all this boils down to is I don't like surprises--and this was one for sure. Disabled from military so my travel ability is limited. That left me buying through pictures which is something I've never done before. The seller only had this truck for a short time and is more familiar with bigger MVs--decided he'd rather go with a civilian Power Wagon vice M37. I agree on the "liked the color" comment--not me so much. Kind of partial to shades of military green! Will post some pictures this afternoon. Thank you!

 

[mobiledab]

The original T245 engine will have a bolt-on oil filler pipe, not one just pressed into a hole. Quite unique...

I totally spaced looking at the oil fill pipe and dipstick--single-focused on those darn head bolts! Temperature and humidity going up quickly here, so I will probably wait until later this afternoon to go back out and take pictures. I can live whatever the engine is so long as it runs. Thank you!

 

[mobiledab]

Took a bunch of pictures and posted same. The more I look, the more convinced I am this is not a T245 engine. Civilian oil fill, dipstick along with all the other civilian attributes previously mentioned. Oh and the area where the engine detail should be is blank as far as I can tell--see picture 6. From T137 Registry, they have picture which indicates this may be a Dodge engine because it was stamped on top of the boss instead of the side, but who knows--see last picture. Also wonder if this engine was rebuilt could they have removed the stamping when decking the block? I'm stumped by picture 5. Not ashamed to admit I have no clue what is pictured between the dipstick tube and back end of starter. Can anyone enlighten me? Also confounded by picture 13 and what the marking cast into the head after the firing order means--maybe a logo? I confirmed length of head is 25". Carb is Carter B&B stamped E6P5 which is apparently associated with 1934 to 1939 Chrysler. Also stamped on the air horn is 6-293 and think it may just be a casting number from some Carter information I read. What I can't help but panic about is the engine is the same vintage as that carb! Finally, the only thing I can find associated with the 10039 casting number on the head is association with Massey Harris aka Ferguson tractors. So maybe this is an old industrial engine. The only things I'm sure of is the engine is incorrect for an M37 and I have no other ideas on how to identify what I have! Thank again for the help!

David

 

[msgjd]

your engine is definitely red.. way more red than the 1964-74 "hemi orange" I spoke of, which is a striking dark orange shade .. Yours is very red on the cylinder head ... Somebody wanted that color or it was a rebuilder's discretion.. For a time in the 1950's-60s, fire-engine-red engines looked very spiffy under the hood... I recall seeing other makes that had been painted red by owners or rebuilders, such as continental industrial flatheads powering farm implements, pumps, and forklifts , as well as LeRoi industrial engines .. Normally they were painted the color of the machine, but customers sometimes had an option

 

[mobiledab]

I really have a problem here give there is nothing on the pad. Have read on other forums that this may be a warranty replacement engine, and they were supposed to be stamped by dealers with replaced engine numbers. Don't know if I'm seeing things or I was staring too long today, but I keep thinking I may see remnants of characters on top of the tab. Will try some mild acid and see if it may come up. Also don't care for the thought that a 1951 truck may have a 1930s engine in it. You can't see it everywhere on the engine but green was painted over the red/orange/whatever. Other thing bothering me is I find next to no information on the 10039 head casting number. BTW, I'm in Canandaigua outside of Rochester--where are you in upstate, NY?

David

 

[ab705]

What all this boils down to is I don't like surprises--and this was one for sure.

Not unusual to have a replacement engine of questionable pedigree. I wouldn't lose sleep over it. If you're really concerned about it, it shouldn't be hard to find a T245 mill in running condition that's gathering dust after it was swapped for something more exotic, like a diesel or V8.

However, I'd suggest you consider getting the current mill running with minimal effort (for now, at least) and have some fun with the beast, then later on if you get serious about finding a T245, you'll be that much more knowledgeable about the mechanical side of the M37 and better prepared to make the swap go easier and faster.

If you decide to eventually replace the current engine with a T245, look on the bright side: Having a T245 replacement engine mounted on a stand out in the open is an easy and fun way to work on it without doing anything strenuous. Then, when you're ready to install it, you call in a few favors from your friends. It doesn't take long to swap out the engine and transmission if you have an engine hoist (and someone to help with the heavy stuff for a few hours).

I have to avoid the heavy stuff myself, as my lower back has seen better days.

 

[mobiledab]

Not really as upset as I may be sounding. My plans have not changed and I will be working to get the truck started. Cleaned out the bed today so I could see what I ended up with for extra parts. Bed is super straight but has rust scale in abundance present under the parts and pallet that were in there. Will blast and see if savable or needs replacement. Looking at brakes after that so I can do as you suggest--enjoy driving it. I have a 2-ton hoist to pull the engine if/when needed--have done many over the years. Will be exploring your copper-nickel brake line technology tomorrow after I finish removing the M37 bed. Anxious to see what's going on with the frame.

David

 

[msgjd]

Other thing bothering me is I find next to no information on the 10039 head casting number. BTW, I'm in Canandaigua outside of Rochester--where are you in upstate, NY?
David

way northeast of you , champlain valley

 

[mobiledab]

Used to live in Plattsburgh--I was stationed there 1978 thru 1982. Loved it there and being out on Lake Champlain--liked to camp on Valcour Island. I remember a large surplus business there I think. Small world!

 

[msgjd]

Used to live in Plattsburgh--I was stationed there 1978 thru 1982. Loved it there and being out on Lake Champlain--liked to camp on Valcour Island. I remember a large surplus business there I think. Small world!

you are likely thinking of George Moore's in Keeseville, south of Platts ... Always had a ton of 6x6 (and 4x4) M-series there.. I was born/raised on the VT side, and aside of an active engineer stint in Missouri, I split most my time between VT and NY .. Had bought stereo equip at PAFB PX a couple times in the early 80's.. I would go there in my army khaki's and get the hairy eyeball treatment from the flyboys

 

[mobiledab]

Many thanks for your military service! As I'm sure you remember, Plattsburgh was a Strategic Air Command (SAC) base and we had nuclear-armed FB-111A bombers and KC-135Q/R tankers there on alert. Remember during the 1980 Olympics we had Russians outside the fence at the end of the runway taking pictures of the alert facility and weapon storage area. Security Police squadron had a half-track with .50 cal machine guns and brand new snowmobiles to patrol along that fence line. NYSP did all the heavy lift though given the so-called trespassers were outside the fence. Remember also seeing Russians at Pyramid Mall buying all kinds of stuff--even in the grocery store. Could not help but stare at them. Even to leave to work at Olympic venues--they took tons of military folks because we were easy to check out. Probably "flyboys" (pilots or navigators) that were giving you the stink eye! I was still in the enlisted half of my career and the officers were not very nice to us enlisted troops. One particular time during annual Global Shield exercise where all alert aircraft flew to Pease AFB NH (our sister base) pretending we were off to bomb all the communists. I was a Staff Sgt master jet engine mechanic at the time and we flew along with the aircraft in case there were problems. We were in one of the tankers about 10 aircraft back to take off when the aircraft commander called the tower with a #2 engine generator failure. Everyone on board had headsets that were hot and we could hear all the crew conversations. It was only a few minutes earlier we listened to the aircraft commander and his copilot talking and saying, "...this enlisted puke this" and "...enlisted puke that" which pissed myself and other enlisted on board. Myself and an aircraft electrician got out with engines running on a taxi way to troubleshoot the generator problem. If this was real DEFCON we would have flown with only two generators (aircraft has four engines, but only three have generators). Anyway, we were on the ground with headsets on so we could talk to the crew. Now we heard the aircraft commander badmouthing us because he was going to miss his golf tee time if we did not hurry up! We both agreed on the ground to fix this Captain's ass--we could fix it, but it was not going to be on his timeline! Tower called a few minutes later and made our aircraft what's called "Tail Number Spare" and that meant we'd just sit there on the taxiway until all the other aircraft took off. In the end our takeoff time slipped by about 90 minutes after we fixed the failed generator, and the Captain did not get to play golf that day! Always hated that some (not all) officers did not have appreciation or respect for enlisted troops! Flyboys were the worst! Always took the rivalry between services to be healthy and good fun. We all had a mission that sometimes depended on folks from other services, and that was important! Loved the fact Army had neat toys to play with and I was jealous! All "Brothers In Arms" no matter what! And you are right about George Moore--forgot about Keeseville! There was another guy in Peru who was into jeeps--mostly civilian--but also had some M38A1s and uncut M151s. I had a 1956 Willys pickup at that time and went to him for body parts as my truck was a true NY rust bucket. He would always try to get me to trade military gear with him. I would take the ferry over to Vermont often. Bought a used Volvo there in Burlington and had to go there for service if it was more than I could handle. Beautiful state and a beautiful part of NY as well. We moved back here after 27 years in Colorado and--other than for property taxes--have no regrets. Much nicer here than Colorado in my opinion! One thing I do remember was during the winter when Champlain was frozen how people would drive or land small planes on the ice. Remember someone tried moving a mobile home across the ices and lost the trailer and truck. Also remember a salvage crew out there the next summer hauling them back up on a barge. Think they got too close to where the ferries would cross and break ice--sucks to have been them, and somehow I don't think insurance would pay out on such a stupid move! Again, small world and you know what they say about the six degrees of separation!

David

 

[ODAddict]

Thanks for posting the photos. Do you have some photos which show some context; that is, a bit further back to take in the entire engine compartment and accessories. Many of the photos are too tight and close.

While your engine may not be original, at a glance it appears to be the right engine. The coil. spark plugs, and cables are not original, but that's not a big deal.

 

[mobiledab]

Think I have solved the mystery--at least partially. I crawled under the truck to check the passenger side of the block for rebuild/industrial/other tags given the left side of the block is not stamped. There is a Chrysler tag mounted to the block and is stamped "MODEL 32-1634-1", "SERIAL No. F077128", and "PART NUMBER (blank)". The "32" indicates a 265 cubic inch with timing chain vice gears. I have no clue on the rest of the numbers and letters. Also, the tag has Marysville, Michigan vice newer tags listing Detroit, Michigan. Chrysler presence in Marysville began in 1927 after Dodge was purchased. So, my engine may be much older then the truck. See pictures below. Thanks to everyone for the help!