IP timing questions

[helomedic1171]

Some of you may remember the MEP-003 I picked up a couple of months ago, which was missing just about everything. I've since got the parts I need, and started putting everything together. I tried to crank it tonight, and it turns over, but will not start/run. The genset didn't have an IP on it at all, and I suspect the timing is where the malfunction is. how do I reset the pump timing? with no pump to go by, I'm not even at square one, I'm farther behind.

I changed all the filters with new ones, used fresh JP-8, both main pumps are clicking away, there's fresh oil and a new oil filter, I'm at a loss.

 

[Isaac-1]

Try reading this


www.ambac.net/images/IF_No._3136.pdf

 

[helomedic1171]

Thanks Isaac. I tried reading it just now, and it might as well be Chinese.

Usually that means I'm too tired to process what I'm looking at. I'm gonna catch some Zs and then re-read that .pdf again and try the flow method. I definitely didn't pay attention to the cam lobe position when I installed that pump, and I'm thinking that is at least contributing to my problem.

I'm also going to swap out my Aux pump with the spare on my shelf, because it's not pumping. I know this doesn't affect the starting of the engine much, especially since I noticed a leak from the supply line at the IP. I tightened the line and it's fine now, but i now know fuel is getting there. I also cracked open the strainer petcocks, and I get clear fuel. Thanks again for the help!

 

[coyote62ny]

do you have the correct timing button installed?

 

[helomedic1171]

I have no idea. I got a used pump that had I believe a #14 in it, but my generator didn't have an IP on it at all, so I have no way of knowing which button I need if this setup doesn't work.

 

[LuckyDog]

There are shims that should be on the block between the IP and block. They should stay with the block. The manual (TM 5-6115-584-34) says the thickness of the shim or shims is stamped on the block.

Paragraph 7-18 a. (3) provides guidance.

Just another thing to look for / at.

Links to the manuals can be found in Speddmon's signature or via the Wiki.

 

[helomedic1171]

they should, but in my case, the shim was gone as well.

 

[storeman]

About half the engines I've dealt with have no shims. If yours is marked for needing shims, tell me the thickness and I'll send you some.
Jerry

 

[helomedic1171]

I've looked at the mounting face for te IP, and it has no markings for shims. The pump I got came with three shims, so I just used those. The pump has a "1" marked for the timing button indication, which I think really means "11", but in either case, it has a timing button in it. When I get back in town, I'll see which button I have. Anybody have a good method for checking the mounting surface distance? I'm assuming a depth micrometer on the square eccentric, just asking if anyone has any good tips. Also, I moved the engine to "pc", but I'm not entirely sure it's on compression. With no spark plug hole to put your finger on, what's the best way to know?

 

[LuckyDog]

... I'm assuming a depth micrometer ...

Correct but not on the sqaure cam / eccentric. It is from the smooth area beside the IP Drive Gear. See the attached figure from the manual. The 1.171" dimension is the critical dimension. Use the correct amount of shim material so the depth gauge reading is 1.171 inches.

... Also, I moved the engine to "pc", but I'm not entirely sure it's on compression. With no spark plug hole to put your finger on, what's the best way to know?

Remove the valve cover from from the front cylinder pair. If PC is correct for #1, both valve rockers will be loose.

 

[helomedic1171]

funny story, I just now saw that little arrow indicating the flat face right next to the gear teeth. I was checking the thread with my phone, and was able to magnify it a great deal. looking at the PDF as well as the paper manual (yes, I have a legit paper copy of the original -34 manual) and didn't see it until looking at it with my phone. I'm going to go looking for a depth micrometer online, and see if there is a shop here in PA that has one at a reasonable price. When I get back to Savannah, I can start going at this again.

When I pull that valve cover, I should probably go ahead and replace the gaskets - I'm assuming the valve covers have gaskets... anyone have a good part number? (preferably Fel-pro or comparable)

EDIT: I got 115-0139 out of the -24P, I'm going to check around and see what i find.

 

[Isaac-1]

Try Harbor Freight for a cheap micrometer

 

[helomedic1171]

will do. I have dial indicators and digital mic's, but no depth mic/gauge. guess it's time to buy something else shiny to add to the toolbox.

I tried 0115-0139 and 115-0139, no dice. if all else fails, I can take the Army approach: RTV sealant.

 

[storeman]

Helomedic,

Seems to me (based on imperfect recall from past tear downs) that if the engine block requires shims, there is a hard to find and read engraving on the block where the IP mounts showing the micro measurement so required shims can be determined. Many IPs have been removed with shims and sold that way, but shims follow the block and timing buttons follow the IPs. If your IP came with a 14 button, it should be good to go.

Offer still stands, if you find the micro reading, shims are free.
Jerry

 

[helomedic1171]

Helomedic,

Seems to me (based on imperfect recall from past tear downs) that if the engine block requires shims, there is a hard to find and read engraving on the block where the IP mounts showing the micro measurement so required shims can be determined. Many IPs have been removed with shims and sold that way, but shims follow the block and timing buttons follow the IPs. If your IP came with a 14 button, it should be good to go.

Offer still stands, if you find the micro reading, shims are free.
Jerry

Much appreciated. I'll look again on Tuesday when i get back to Savannah. I'll take you up on those shims if I wind up needing them. It's likely that it was dark (9 pm) and I just couldn't see through the thin layer of rust on he mounting flange.

so far, this has been a pretty cool experience. I got my Dad's generator running pretty easy. I wound up patching the holes they drilled in the tank, adding oil, using fresh fuel, and it cranked right up. no load test yet, but it makes a great power source for my work lights while i work on mine.

 

[Speddmon]

Many IPs have been removed with shims and sold that way, but shims follow the block and timing buttons follow the IPs. If your IP came with a 14 button, it should be good to go.

Offer still stands, if you find the micro reading, shims are free.
Jerry

The timing button doesn't follow the IP. The timing button ONLY follows the IP if the IP has already been set up, timed and used on a specific engine and then ONLY if it is going back on that particular engine. And even then, if the IP has been rebuild with a new HH, the button will NOT follow the IP.

If you did not have an IP on the engine when you got it, follow the advice already given and determine if any shims are needed, and get the shims. Then flow time the IP to determine the proper size of button you need to get. You almost certainly will need a new button.

 

[storeman]

MY error.
h. Adjust/Time on Equipment.
(1) Time the injection pump to the engine by using
the proper thickness timing button between pump plunger
and tappet (see figure 7-33). Use method 1 when replacing
an old pump if the port closing dimensions and bottom
number of the old pump were recorded. Use method 2 if
the dimensions are lost, an old pump is being timed, or
when replacing either the camshaft or crankshaft.
7 - 3 8 Change 5
(2) Timing Method 1. This is a means for calculating
the correct button thickness before the pump is
installed. It requires the port closing dimensions and
button thickness from the pump being replaced. Substitute
the dimensions for those in the formula below
and calculate the new button thickness. Determine the
button code letter from table 7-1.
Example Formula:
Port closing dimension of old pump
(removed from engine) . . . . . . . . . . 1.093

Always use button thickness closest to this
dimension.
Install the correct button in pump (figure 7-33) and
install pump following the instructions under injection
pump installation above.
(3) Timing Method 2. Flowing the Pump.
(a) Install a Number 12 or M timing button in
injection pump and install pump on engine, following
instructions under injection pump installation above.
Button thickness of old pump . . . . . . . +0.119
1.212
Port closing dimension of new pump . . . . -1.089
When removing tappets which contain timing
Button thickness of new pump . . . . . . . 0.123 buttons, do not allow the portion of the injection
pump which has the face gear to be lifted
Use button M

 

[LuckyDog]

I tried 0115-0139 and 115-0139, no dice. if all else fails, I can take the Army approach: RTV sealant.

For Valve cover gasket:

Try 115-0130

115-0130 MDJB/MDJE/JB/DJB DJC Rocker Arm Cover Gasket [115-0130] - $7.00 : Onanparts.com, Your Onan Parts Solution

or

Sears Parts Direct http://www.searspartsdirect.com/par...filterPart=&pop=flush&prst=0&shdPart=115-0130

OR

Your local Cummins/Onan dealer.

For Shims: If buying them is too expensive, don't be afraid to buy shim material and cut your own. They aren't thick. Don't know where the pricing break point is. Online shim material from McMaster-Carr seemed expensive to me. BUT, then I don't need them either.

Good luck.

 

[helomedic1171]

Thanks again guys.

I'm going to flow time the pump regardless, since I don't have the old one. if I need a new button, I'll see if the other one I have is the correct one, if not, I'll order one or sweet talk Jerry into selling me one.

As for shims - sounds like a great idea. I saw an old thread before i posted this one about shims, and Delk's had them for like $10 for a kit, though that was about a year ago, so that might have changed. I'm not afraid to try and cut my own though. but honestly, Jerry's willing to drop a few in an envelope and mail 'em, so I'm covered like hashbrowns at Waffle House.

Also, thanks for the part number LuckyDog! I'm getting those sent to my house before I leave PA.

 

[helomedic1171]

Lots of developments.

BLUF:, I had the right shims, and I'm pretty sure I'm 180-bass-ackwards from correct timing.

I measured (4 times) the distance from the mounting surface to that flat machined surface on the cam, and after doing the math, came out to .014. so I measured the shims, and lo an behold I had a few different sizes to make the .014 I needed. then, to make it even better, I found where it was marked on the block, above where the IP mounts, where "014" is stamped clearly into the block. Nice.

So on to flow timing. I aligned the PC mark with the timing tab, the rockers were loose on the valve tips like someone else said, and according to the manual, "one lobe is pointed out and 45 degrees down." which it appeared to be. which one, you ask? not the valves corresponding to cylinder #1, I figured out later. so I realized that my PC mark was lining up halfway through the injection cycle on #1, or during part of #3. so I'm more like 90 degrees out. just enough to be annoying. so I'm gonna set it up again and try to crank tomorrow. just wanted to share the info. I felt a little defeated at first, but now that I know what I did wrong, I know where to start tomorrow.

Later,
Josh