M1008 Starter problems

[Commander5993]

Hey all, I have a 1986 CUCV M1008 with the original 6.2 with original 24v system. Long post, you can probably skip down to the section with below.

I had to replace the starter about 4 or 5 years ago with a remanufactured one. I think its what everyone calls the "direct drive" model, but I can't actually find a model number on it and its been too long for me to remember.

In any case, yesterday was doing some maintenance on the truck, one thing I did was changed out the batteries as when it was super cold here (-7 with -30+ windchill) a couple weeks ago the truck didn't want to start. Cranked but didn't want to fire, which is the first time I've not been able to start this truck in the winter, with at most cycling the glow plugs a couple times. I did finally get it started after running the batteries low and had to put a charger on them. Which they obviously were very cold too and therefore lower CCA, although they tested fine. I don't think I cranked it too long and overheated it... but always possible.

Then yesterday after I changed the batteries and went to start it to make sure everything was good. It cranked and started right up, but there was some noise. I thought at first I had a bearing on an alternator or something that was going bad. But it sounded worse than that. After looking the engine over and using a IR Temperature laser to find that neither bearing was hot on the alternators, at least on the case. I shut the truck off. Then I went to start it again, and click. Got the click multiple times, then it started to crank once but I turned the key back "off" before I realized it started to crank. After that I couldn't get it to crank again, just click.

Today, I tapped on the starter, loosened and re-tightened bolts, tapped it some more and etc. Nothing but clicks. So I loosened the bolts just a bit and with someone in the cab hitting the key and me under the truck tapping on the starter, it finally cranked and fired right up. Could still hear that same loud "grinding?"noise with the engine running. I quickly pulled it into my barn and shut if off, needed to get it inside as we had storms moving in. And I wanted to at least get it pulled out today as I'm sure I'll have to order the replacement, as I live out in farm country with no big auto parts stores near here. Plus its a 24v so I doubt the O'reiles 35 miles from me would stock one anyway.

With that all being the case I figured that the starter drive must have been stuck. I'm hoping that it didn't get stuck in the ring gear teeth. It took me about 4 hours to get the starter off and out of the truck I must not know some trick or something, because this thing was just a bear to get out. There just isn't any space to work the starter out from over the drive shaft, oil pan, differential and etc. Couldn't hardly even see the bracket bolt no matter which way I angeled my light. Couldn't get to solenoid wires until I finally got it all unbolted and down toward the frame. I've never saw this old of a truck with so little room and be that hard and time consuming to just pull a starter out. I knew I had problems with it the last time though, but don't remember it being this bad. Should be a 20-30 min job. I almost think I could pull the engine easier, install a new starter on it, then reinstall the engine....

In any case, finally got it up on the workbench and the gear was not retracted fully into the nose (photo attached) only about half way. So I'm something is screwed up internally. But the teeth on the pinion don't look bad, so hopefully it didn't damage the ring gear. I'll have to get back down and try to look, I don't even know if I can see the ring gear down inside there with all the stuff in the way. With that said, since the teeth on the pinion gear look good... maybe it wasn't engaging the ring gear... but then what was all the noise from when the engine was running...? Hopefully not another issue.....

I didn't try to bench test it yet as I was wore out, and even if it does spin and retract it really doesn't mean much being off the truck.

I tried looking up some starters this evening, but all I'm finding are 12v models on the parts sites. So is this a CUCV specific model that you just have to look up by model number? I found a thread where someone said a 28MT would fit, but the one I found was still listed as being 12v

Also there are two different "styles", or at least for 12v models there are. One type looks like this one, and the other looks smaller which I assume is a gear reduction starter. I would be open to the idea of being able to replace this with a smaller starter if that is possible. I'd also like to just buy a brand new one instead of any off brand remanufactured one's this time. I don't want to replace this thing again any time soon... or ever. But I also don't want to pay $300 or something. Used to be a place here that rebuilt starters and alternators, but they went out of business a few years ago.

Anyone know if there is a 24v "smaller" (gear reduction?) starter model that will work? And if they are still a strong starter?
Direct drive or gear reduction, are there any brand preferences that are best? I would think AC Delco/Delco would be OEM? Any other brands better?

And is there some sort of "correct method" to getting this starter out and back in??? Remove motor mounts and lift the engine?? Remove oil pan?? Front DIff??!! Tried to search on here, but didn't see anything pertaining to this. So now I'm guessing there isn't any "trick" and I am just that bad in figuring it out. I'll blame it on my tbi...

Any Help would be MUCH Appreciated,
Thanks

 

[87cr250r]

If you want a gear reduction starter you want a Delco 28MT starter. OEM pad mount units aren't the easiest to find but the pad mount nose is available for tens of dollars which let's you convert any starter. The 28MT starters are very strong.

The hardest part about changing a starer is disconnecting the wiring at the solenoid. If you had difficulty fitting the starters between the engine and frame perhaps you need new motor mounts. The parts store mounts are garbage, get the right units in polyurethane from Energy Suspension or your other favorite manufacturer.

 

[Commander5993]

If you want a gear reduction starter you want a Delco 28MT starter. OEM pad mount units aren't the easiest to find but the pad mount nose is available for tens of dollars which let's you convert any starter. The 28MT starters are very strong.

The hardest part about changing a starer is disconnecting the wiring at the solenoid. If you had difficulty fitting the starters between the engine and frame perhaps you need new motor mounts. The parts store mounts are garbage, get the right units in polyurethane from Energy Suspension or your other favorite manufacturer.

I found this info from Delco's site: https://www.delcoremy.com/find-a-part/product-details/10479611
Looks like the correct Delco Part # would be 10479611

However, when searching for a real Delco, all I find is from off brands crossing over to the Delco number. I'll look to see if I can find the pad nose, maybe I can convert one like you said.

You're right about the motor mounts, OEM are junk. However I did upgrade to all poly mounts (forgot brand) as some other SS members also suggested about 12 years ago when I got the truck. The mount on the starter side of engine looked good today, I wouldn't think they would break down in that time.

EDIT: I guess I could probably just use the pad nose off this starter? I know I wouldn't be able to turn this in for a core, but most of them online don't offer core refunds anyway.

 

[Commander5993]

wow... even what few real Delco 28mt's I can find are $$$. Guess I'll have to find the "best" aftermarket...

 

[Commander5993]

Anyone have an opinion on the Wilson rebuilt starters? Are those Delco's that Wilson rebuilt? Or just aftermarket refurbs?
The Wilson Direct Drive starters are actually more expensive than the gear reduction version.

Found this Wilson Gear Reduction: https://www.finditparts.com/product...iLCJyZXN1bHRfY291bnQiOjIsInJlc3VsdF9pZHgiOjB9

Oreily's also has it too, but cost more... https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/...9/wilson-starter-remanufactured/wil0/91014417

And apparently I would need to change the rear mount for a gear reduction starter: https://www.amazon.com/Genuine-GM-23502557-Starter-Bracket/dp/B00GV77H2U

 

[royalflush55]

Wilson takes a Delco starter and completely remanufactures it. Not a cheap rebuilt unit.
The correct Wilson number for the 27MT original direct drive starter is 91-01-4376. Filters Products Corporation out of Tuscon, AZ sells them for $206.10 w/free shipping. There is a core charge of $59. Where ever you buy keep the core and find a shop to remanufacture it for a spare.

 

[Barrman]

If you switch from the direct drive starter to a reduction drive you have to get a new support bracket. Here is a video I did showing the different starters and brackets:

I have success using a 1/4” drive socket set with about a 6” extension to loosen the wire holding nuts while the starter is still bolted up. Then I unbolt the support bracket from the block with a 13mm swivel or u-joint socket. Then I unbolt the two starter bolts. Once the starter is loose I turn it so I can remove the nuts holding the wires with my fingers (Less chance of them falling and never being found again in my experience.). It has been almost a year since I did the last one, but I either dropped it straight down or maybe went towards the front of the truck a little. Did you pull the torque converter cover off the transmission?

 

[Commander5993]

Wilson takes a Delco starter and completely remanufactures it. Not a cheap rebuilt unit.
The correct Wilson number for the 27MT original direct drive starter is 91-01-4376. Filters Products Corporation out of Tuscon, AZ sells them for $206.10 w/free shipping. There is a core charge of $59. Where ever you buy keep the core and find a shop to remanufacture it for a spare.

Thanks for the info on the Wilson, I would much rather have the Delco reman than the aftermarket stuff.

I don't think that this starter is a Delco. If it were I might keep it for a rebuild. But I believe it is just a cheap aftermarket, if so I'll just use it for a core. Is there any way to tell? There is no model number or ID on this one.

 

[Commander5993]

If you switch from the direct drive starter to a reduction drive you have to get a new support bracket. Here is a video I did showing the different starters and brackets:

I have success using a 1/4” drive socket set with about a 6” extension to loosen the wire holding nuts while the starter is still bolted up. Then I unbolt the support bracket from the block with a 13mm swivel or u-joint socket. Then I unbolt the two starter bolts. Once the starter is loose I turn it so I can remove the nuts holding the wires with my fingers (Less chance of them falling and never being found again in my experience.). It has been almost a year since I did the last one, but I either dropped it straight down or maybe went towards the front of the truck a little. Did you pull the torque converter cover off the transmission?

Thanks for the Video! And yeah the sockets and extensions sounds about like what I used.
Yes going to order the bracket and some new starter bolts too. I may need to order the 13mm bracket bolt, as the head of this one is rounding off some. Would have to find a part # though. I'm sure any grade 5 bolt of the right size/thread would work. But I have very little metric hardware. The local places here don't have anything. One town about 35 mile away would probably have it. But if I could order it from the same place would just be easier.
EDIT: From the CUCV FAQ looks like its part # 14060613. Can't find it by the part #, but they also show its a m8 x 1.25 x 20mm and I found those.

And no... I did not remove the torque converter cover. Don't know why I didn't, just never came to mind to do so. Hard to think sometimes these days. Thanks for the help.

 

[Commander5993]

Found this WILSON HD ROTATING ELECT 91-01-4417 - 28MT for $177 +$47 core on a heavy truck parts site:

Wilson HD Rotating Elect 91-01-4417 Starter Motor + Cross Reference | FinditParts

Wilson HD Rotating Elect 91-01-4417 28MT Series Starter Motor - 24v, Off Set Gear Reduction ✓ Order now for same-day shipping on eligible purchases from FinditParts.com, America's online marketplace for heavy duty parts.

www.finditparts.com

EDIT: HA! they showed free shipping the whole time, until I went to actually pay. Then it showed $475 freight charge! Not buying it there.
Oreilles shows its a "special order" item for $261+$40 core, and I have to call or go instore to order. Then go back to pickup. Doesn't even give an estimated time.
But as RoyalFlush55 said, Filters Products Corporation has them. $179 +$47 core and Actual Free Shipping, just ordered it. I actually ran a part number search on this site before when you mentioned it RoyalFlush, but it said "no part found". Then I found a link on here... somewhere? and it came right up...

[back to original post]
This is off topic, but my coolant temp light stays on all the time. It starts to glow as soon as I start the truck. Then gets full brightness when the engine is warm. It is not overheating. I'm guessing the sending unit is bad? I did change the dash lights to LED bulbs back sometime ago, but I can't remember if the light was always on before I changed them or not. If the sending unit operates off resistance, could changing to an led bulb cause this??

I have a temp gauge, but its a bosch and it doesn't read right. Used to show about 150, now its good if it gets to 125. I believe there is a 180 degree thermostat in truck, found out off the FAQ's that it should be 195 degree. I think I'll order that too.

 

[nyoffroad]

Sorry no info on the starter itself, but try jacking the truck up from the frame and letting the axle hang, then set the starter on the spring and connect/disconnect the wires and then put in place. This gives you a bit of a break from holding that heavy thing up there. While your at it remove the flex plate cover and check the flex-plate bolts, that might be the noise you heard.

 

[Commander5993]

Sorry no info on the starter itself, but try jacking the truck up from the frame and letting the axle hang, then set the starter on the spring and connect/disconnect the wires and then put in place. This gives you a bit of a break from holding that heavy thing up there. While your at it remove the flex plate cover and check the flex-plate bolts, that might be the noise you heard.

Thanks nyoffroad When I was trying to pull that starter out, I had thought about jacking up the truck to see if it would allow the axle to drop down enough to make some room. But someone took my jack stands back sometime ago... and I really don't like being under anything with just a jack holding it. Guess I'm going to have to get some more stands.

And you're right, I'll check the bolts in the flex-plate. That could have been where the noise was coming from. If they all are tight, then I'm still not sure. I will remove it though before trying to install the new starter though.

 

[WWRD99]

Thanks nyoffroad When I was trying to pull that starter out, I had thought about jacking up the truck to see if it would allow the axle to drop down enough to make some room. But someone took my jack stands back sometime ago... and I really don't like being under anything with just a jack holding it. Guess I'm going to have to get some more stands.

And you're right, I'll check the bolts in the flex-plate. That could have been where the noise was coming from. If they all are tight, then I'm still not sure. I will remove it though before trying to install the new starter though.

You need to jack up the frame with the bumper not the axles...need room between the axle and frame to get it out...if you lift the axles there won't be room...I use a trail bumper jack to lift it quick on the grill guard to get them out...only takes few inches so the axles are still on the ground...also taking the bell cover off can be some work with the trans lines so beware of that too...you found the correct bolt for the block to hold the bracket on. If you take the bracket nut off the starter then the 2 main bolts off you can get the wires off without trying to do that with it mounted...that thing is heavy but I think the geared one isn't as heavy as the direct drive so hopefully that makes your install easier. I'd be curious if you have a flywheel issue since I assume it didn't do it before.

 

[Chunk ball]

I second checking the flywheel out. get that cover off and inspect it and look for broken off teeth. this happened to mine so bad (because a missing support bracket) to the point id have to turn the engine over to get it to start. As far as difficulty removing the starter i think i remember just using lots of extensions and things til it work. holding that starter up above your face is pretty tough. good luck

 

[nyoffroad]

On one of my first trucks, I replace the starter with one that a lifetime warranty and that was the worst ever! Every year I had to get in replaced, after a while I extended the wires to it so replacing was much easier. I believe that was on a civvie 2wd with a 6.2 and there was no leaf spring to rest it on, that was a great truck. 6.2 700R4 and IIRC3.73 gears, 22-24 MPG and rode great! It died in an accident
I wondered off topic, when checking that flex plate, you want to look for cracks around the bolts too. You probally won't find any but who knows?

 

[Commander5993]

You need to jack up the frame with the bumper not the axles...need room between the axle and frame to get it out...if you lift the axles there won't be room...I use a trail bumper jack to lift it quick on the grill guard to get them out...only takes few inches so the axles are still on the ground...also taking the bell cover off can be some work with the trans lines so beware of that too...you found the correct bolt for the block to hold the bracket on. If you take the bracket nut off the starter then the 2 main bolts off you can get the wires off without trying to do that with it mounted...that thing is heavy but I think the geared one isn't as heavy as the direct drive so hopefully that makes your install easier. I'd be curious if you have a flywheel issue since I assume it didn't do it before.

Yeah I know to lift it by the bumper/frame, as I need the suspension to extend down to make room. All I have is a 3 ton floor jack though, as high as it goes will probably only reach the bumper. I can't add some blocks to it... but I really want to have some additional supports holding the truck when I'm under it.

And yes the bolt is for the support bracket to the block. I wasn't able to get the nut off of the bracket/starter end, but I was able to remove the bolt holding the bracket to the block. Since I'm changing to a gear reduction starter, I have to replace the bracket anyway.

I started to remove the flex plate cover late this evening... but ended up getting hit in the mouth with a long extension when the socket slipped off the 3rd bolt. That hurt a bit... called it a day and went and ate dinner. I will add that all the bolts in the cover were VERY tight. So it wasn't a loose bolt, and the plate has zero play or etc. I'll finish pulling it off tomorrow. I do want to take a look at the fly wheel. And no it never made this noise until this happened with the starter.

 

[Commander5993]

I second checking the flywheel out. get that cover off and inspect it and look for broken off teeth. this happened to mine so bad (because a missing support bracket) to the point id have to turn the engine over to get it to start. As far as difficulty removing the starter i think i remember just using lots of extensions and things til it work. holding that starter up above your face is pretty tough. good luck

Yep, going to get the cover off and look at the flywheel/ring gear. The pinion gear on the starter doesn't appear to be damaged, so I'm REALLY hoping there isn't anything wrong with the ring gear. And yeah, extensions are needed. Tried using several together, also used some of my longer one's too with a swivel adapter at the socket. Hopefully raising the truck up and allowing the suspension to drop down will make it easier to get in there.

 

[Commander5993]

On one of my first trucks, I replace the starter with one that a lifetime warranty and that was the worst ever! Every year I had to get in replaced, after a while I extended the wires to it so replacing was much easier. I believe that was on a civvie 2wd with a 6.2 and there was no leaf spring to rest it on, that was a great truck. 6.2 700R4 and IIRC3.73 gears, 22-24 MPG and rode great! It died in an accident
I wondered off topic, when checking that flex plate, you want to look for cracks around the bolts too. You probably won't find any but who knows?

I've used to work in autoparts and the "lifetime warrenty" stuff had a good amount of returns. I've used them too in the past on other vehicles, and the starter I just took off is an after market "rebuilt". Don't want to go there again. So I'm glad I was able to find a Wilson Delco Remanufactured. From the word on here, it should be a good unit.

Will check for any cracks and such, hope I don't find any but good to keep in mind.

 

[WWRD99]

Yeah I know to lift it by the bumper/frame, as I need the suspension to extend down to make room. All I have is a 3 ton floor jack though, as high as it goes will probably only reach the bumper. I can't add some blocks to it... but I really want to have some additional supports holding the truck when I'm under it.

And yes the bolt is for the support bracket to the block. I wasn't able to get the nut off of the bracket/starter end, but I was able to remove the bolt holding the bracket to the block. Since I'm changing to a gear reduction starter, I have to replace the bracket anyway.

I started to remove the flex plate cover late this evening... but ended up getting hit in the mouth with a long extension when the socket slipped off the 3rd bolt. That hurt a bit... called it a day and went and ate dinner. I will add that all the bolts in the cover were VERY tight. So it wasn't a loose bolt, and the plate has zero play or etc. I'll finish pulling it off tomorrow. I do want to take a look at the fly wheel. And no it never made this noise until this happened with the starter.

Oh geez getting a mouth clip from a ratchet sucks!!! I've lost a front tooth from that!! Good luck on the other bolts!

 

[Commander5993]

Oh geez getting a mouth clip from a ratchet sucks!!! I've lost a front tooth from that!! Good luck on the other bolts!

yeah, worst was since the bolts were so tight and small working space. I thought it was a good idea to use my 3/8" cordless impact with that long extension 🫢
at first I thought I might have loosened my front tooth, hurt like heck. but they're ok today. lip still hurts though

needless to say I used my long breaker bar today instead of my impact