max HP out of a 465 multi fuel?

[dittle]

Ok, so say someone does get their multi to put out a gazillion HP (exagerating), all you're going to do is tear something else up down the line if you put a big load behind it and run the engine's full power through the rest of the drivetrain. Yes bumping the multi up a little shouldn't hurt things (sure someone will prove this point wrong by tearing something up).

 

[LovinPSDs]

I'm not going for a gazzillion..I think making the horsepower more useable and make the truck better to drive. Like I said, I don't even have one but I like the idea of all the little tweaking. Whats the next weak link? Clutch? I thought 2.5 ton axles were tough lol

Flame suit on... Fairly good odds i'll have a bobbed deuce when I get one so it'll be alil more "nimble" anyway... Unless I got full out on 46's lol

 

[dittle]

L,

I think the clutch would be the thing to go as I don't think you going to hurt the axles. The transmission or Xfer case might be casualties as well. It all depends on how hard they are used. A few more HP shouldn't hurt the truck as others have done it and I wasn't trying to say anyone was going for an unreasonable amount of power. I just wanted to throw the thoughts about how if you do get the power out, what next. I also was exagerating the numbers by quite a bit. I don't plan on flaming you.....yet

 

[LovinPSDs]

Dittle, thanks for the info. I'm still learning here... So I have a few things to say. One because I'm stuck in India right now in a hotel room for 8 days with no tv and nothing to do... Two because I love talkin about tweaking motors...

So, how many people burn up a clutch with there motor tweaked up?

Next, I don't think realisticly your going to get more than roughly 225 Hp outa this motor with out getting into a major moddifaction situation. I do agree with a statement above tho.. its fun to do things no one else has.

I do stand by what I said in saying that I would like the power more useable and on tap. If there is say 50 more HP than stock but you can bring it on quickly and efficently it's more useable. Coming from the deisel side of things there seems like major room for improvement here. Anyone hotrodding the deuce most be really pushing the stock charger past effiency ranges, the guy who said 40 PSI out that charger is in for some serious EGTs... The over all goal here should be a nice clean cool powerful burn in the end..

Anyone have comments on my ideas a few posts above?


O, I almost forgot, If I could have a 6x6 deuce with 53's for a reasonable price trust me I would stick to 3 axles. I like the idea of 65ish MPH tho..

 

[gimpyrobb]

Lovinpsd's I have 3 axles with 395s and will cruise at 62.5mph @ 2500rpm. I have the 180hp LDS motor and the truck is very fun to drive. I have not torn anything up in the driveline.

 

[LovinPSDs]

395's are 46's correct? I really like your picture by the way.. I wanna use mine offroad some too. I wish I could find someone that wants my 4 wheeler + cash for one. But back on track.

Since I haven't driven one.. how well do they spool up? I'm really just trying to use my backround in diesel pickups to help the situtation..

Gimpy.. where in Cincy? I'm from Loveland, If I can get outa this **** hole in india I plan on flying straight to C bus for a night then back to Loveland and heading out to the Indy 500.. If i'm around and have time could you take me for a quick ride?

 

[mudguppy]

Lovin', the problem with the MF motor is the high compression ratio (22:1). it's as hard and harder to get reliable power out of it as it is from your older IDI Ford (~21:1??).

it's been talked about many times here before: a big power MF will have

• lower compression
• improved HG
• improved head flow (for volume)
• balanced bottom end
• larger fuel system
• intercooler
• turbo

except for the last two [and the fuel system (IP + injectors) from an LDS could be utilized], everthing else on the list is high dollar stuff that no one wants to gamble on.

once you get into what will essentially be a completely new rotating assembly and top end, you probably won't want to stop. you'll then find improvements needed in the cam design to allow for better egt's at your new-found higher rpm. block strength will likely also come into question.

i'd estimate this would all be necessary for 300+ HP. now you have a completely different engine. i'd rather just start with something better designed.

...which is what i am working on.

 

[LovinPSDs]

Mud guppy, I'm the same guy from over the TDG. I know what it'll take, like I said I don't think anyone will crank more the 225 outa these with out ALOT of money, but you obviously have knowledge in the deisel area. Have you looked at the comments I made about 10 posts up? Any feedback?

an IDI runs at 21 to 1? Danggg... didn't know that.. what about newer diesels? I had a few 7.3's a 6.0 and now a 6.4... By the way I have a few pictures of your Deuce saved on my computer.. I love that thing.. 53's right?

 

[mudguppy]

... i'll look for it...

my experience w/ turning up the fuel: turbocator install

i can indeed get it up to and over 1300°F;though, as noted it takes so long to get there that i usually only notice it when i'm driving up an interstate hill and remember to look at the guage. it probably takes 30+ seconds to get to 1350°F, and i think that's as hot as she runs at this fuel setting.

 

[mudguppy]

... an IDI runs at 21 to 1? Danggg... didn't know that.. what about newer diesels? I had a few 7.3's a 6.0 and now a 6.4... By the way I have a few pictures of your Deuce saved on my computer.. I love that thing.. 53's right?

yes - necessary to get the air in the injection chamber hot enough. lately, the newer the diesel, the lower the compression ratios seem to be going. 16-17.5:1 is the norm, lower 16's seems to be the latest target. the MF CR is so high in order to create a temp that will auto-ignite just about anything run through the fuel system.

the MF and the 6.2/6.5 GM diesels have a lot of resulting characteristics: exorbitant amounts of internal stress for disappointing power output [vs displacement] and questionable reliability.

 

[mudguppy]

so i inadvertantly deleted my responding post...

anyway Lovin, the short story was that i agreed w/ your assessment and that no one wants to spend the money on making the MF compete w/ a current or later designed diesel.


my experience w/ turning up the fuel: turbocator install

i can indeed get it up to and over 1300°F; though, as noted it takes so long to get there that i usually only notice it when i'm driving up an interstate hill and remember to look at the guage. it probably takes 30+ seconds to get to 1350°F, and i think that's as hot as she runs at this fuel setting.

 

[Hunter2506]

I'm no expert on the MF engines, but it's not hard to understand why their power output is so low for a 7.6 liter mill.

For one, until more recently, military doctrine called for relatively low speeds. It deosn't take 400 hp to move a 20,000 lb loaded deuce at 35-40 MPH, unless talking a serious incline.

More importantly, the technology just wasn't available at a reasonable price point to have these (relatively small ) engines turning big HP numbers. It's not that the 465's aren't heavily built. They most certainly are. It's that the metallurgy just wasn't up to the task. As was said:

Metal is a lot stronger in compression than tension. Power compresses the rod (where it is strong). The piston reversal at TDC puts the rod in tension. The force increases at an exponential rate as RPM goes up. This is why a lot of rods fail. Tension can also cause the big end to go out of round at extreme RPM. It takes only .001"deformation to turn a main bearing into an oil wiper.

The rotating assemblies just can't take it. Rod damage usually occurs on the exhaust downstroke, when the piston has all that upward momentum and the rod suddenly jerks it back down. Within the design parameters, this is not a problem. But overrevving an engine exceeds the tensile strength of the rods, stretching them to the point of failure. That's why High HP racing engines use fully blueprinted and balanced assemblies with lightweight rods and pistons. The big numbers coming from small F-1 engines are done as high as 18,000 RPM. But the rotating assemblies are ridiculously light to make that possible.

Bottom line is that the MF engines just do not have the benefit of modern metallurgy and manufacturing that would allow them to make HP appropriate for their displacement. If they were built like a common rail cummins, they could produce 400 HP and 700 lb/ft reliably.

 

[ttfiveohranger]

I think we can all agree that rpm can kill a multifuel engine or most diesels in general.

The stock turbo is a choke point for power and egts...

Doubling the average force on a piston through higher boost only increases the max force on the power stroke 20%.

Has anyone looked at valve float in these motors and when it occurs?

I've seen stock idi ford v8 diesels with less displacement and similar compression (its over 21-1 on idis) put over 300 hp rear wheel power on the engine dyno.

I think the stock motor could be very capable of 300hp... Better turbo holset~250.. I have several I found for that. Inter cooler and piping~FMIC aluminum chinese crap on ebay actually works pretty decent. ~160 shipped last I checked for 24x12x4 core and 3" piping.. it has been a while. Good Pyrometer for accurate EGTs.

Efficient high boost turbo and intercooler will bring EGTs down. With hand porting of the intake, head, exhaust.. Large down pipe and exhaust. While your at it cut some metal gasket material..

Poof I bet these engines with reasonable modifications are capable of 300 hp reliably with out all the bs previously mentioned. I bet turned up mostly stock motors are hitting 240-250 unless the turbo is just blowing hot air. Metalluragy, design, and rotating mass are killing your RPMs... Not how much extra power these engine can produce to anywhere near the level some are predicting.

9 vs 25 psi of boost? Unless that turbo is way pushed beyond its limits should show much more significant power increases then some give it credit for.

More cooler air in the engine and it sounds like the fuel system has a enough more in it.

I wouldn't think army boys would be so scared to blow stuff up

 

[ttfiveohranger]

Now the drive train may be another issue. I can't seem to find a good replacement transmission for one of these locally yet... I think they may not like the extra torque.... That is another discussion.. being an SAE 2 bellhousing with an SAE 3 adapter stock the heavier duty transmission out there are very numberous! Ingenuity can source such parts for a bargin...

 

[jimk]

Has anyone looked at valve float in these motors and when it occurs?

I don't think it is an issue. The valvetrain runs at half crank speed. That's 1300 cycles per minuite at redline, quite slow by auto standards. Valve springs can get weak as time goes by and some of these engines are 40+y old. Increasing the boost also puts more demands on the intake valve spring.

I wanted to add this about my earlier post. My LD got the D turbo and as the IP was set up the added air (w/ a lot of available fuel) would peg the 15psi boost gauge. I'd estimate 16psi at 2600rpm. Perhaps 200hp. At this level the egt was high towing on level ground. It ran real strong but I felt it was neither practical or safe so turned it down. It took 2-1/2 turns to get to 12psi at 2500rpm. It is still strong and now almost egt idiot proof. Perhaps 170hp.

 

[jimk]

<cut>
Tension can also cause the big end to go out of round at extreme RPM. It takes only .001"deformation to turn a main bearing into an oil wiper.
<cut>

I just noticed 'main bearing' should be 'rod bearing'. I have corrected my original post

 

[dburd72]

more power

anyone thought about propane injection ?

 

[Trudge]

OR water injection ?

 

[Hunter2506]

OR water injection ?

That's an idea, but I think the intercooler is more practical until EGT's dictate that more cooling is needed.

I have an HE-35 off a common rail that I might play with on my LTD at some point. That turbo was efficient to 35 PSI on the 5.9. But I'm more concerned about the injection pump being able to handle the increased demand, especially with a stock lift pump. IMO, anyone turning them up much should be watching fuel pressure. Low supply PSI and volume is the #1 culprit of smoked injection pumps.

Personally, I'd rather shoehorn a 190 horse cummins or somesuch out of a single axle tractor into my duece.

My ultimate MV would be a super singled wrecker/tractor combo crew cab M123A1C with a cummins ISX (changed from red to OD, of course).

 

[LovinPSDs]

Has anyone put a fuel presssure gauge on a truck? Judging by the videos and pictures I'm seeing there is ALOT of fuel available to make 250 HP. But like you said we don't know if the pressure is dropping to low for the IP.

I would like to play with the ideas I stated before but for me thats alil ways down the road. One thing about water injection is it will increase cylinder pressures increasing the risk for HG issues.

Has anyone played with spacing the heads with a thicker gasket or small plate to drop compression ratios slightly. I feel being at 22 to 1, even a small drop is helpful. Especially if it's something your in there working on already.

Hunter - it would be interested to see what a more effiecent turbo could do. I haven't seen the map for the stocker but I'm guessing it's VERY ineffeicent and cheap. Something ceramic coated, somewhat small giving a effiecent 20 PSI could greatly increase spool up and make the truck run alot better.