• Steel Soldiers now has a few new forums, read more about it at: New Munitions Forums!

  • Microsoft MSN, Live, Hotmail, Outlook email users may not be receiving emails. We are working to resolve this issue. Please add support@steelsoldiers.com to your trusted contacts.

LMTV Alternator Disaster, engine now catastophic

aleigh

Well-known member
1,040
52
48
Location
Phoenix, AZ & Seattle, WA
I had driven the truck for tens of thousands of miles, and yet the water pump broke enough to be a detectable leak a few hours after being overheated so bad steam was blowing out of all the coolant hoses. You're saying that's a coincidence?
 

aleigh

Well-known member
1,040
52
48
Location
Phoenix, AZ & Seattle, WA
The military studies answered that question in depth, with pictures, when theirs cracked exactly like that after something like 80 miles into their test.

How much pressure do you think it takes to crack that aluminum cover? It's about 1/8" thick. It would take probably a couple hundred PSI to damage it, and a crack probably wouldn't be the first damage (it would more likely bow the "flat" surface out).

A crack is a fatigue failure. It needs an explanation of why it has been repeatedly stressed and unstressed. Vibration, thermal cycling, impacts, and shock loads are pretty much your choices.
Also, I read the report. Michegin Scientific. They didn't mention anything about accessories on the engine cracking, or the water pump. They did mention of course the flywheel but we all knew that. If you have another report that says water pump covers crack, I would love to read it.

And I offered a reasonable alternative view of events. The cover is bolted to the housing by what, six, or seven bolts or whatever. They are made out of different materials. When one is rapidly heated or cooled they are going to expand and contract at different rates and something is going to crack - related to the idea of why bridges have expansion joints. The rapid heating that accompanies a boil-over sure qualifies in my mind.
 

Awesomeness

Well-known member
Steel Soldiers Supporter
1,813
1,518
113
Location
Orlando, FL
I had driven the truck for tens of thousands of miles, and yet the water pump broke enough to be a detectable leak a few hours after being overheated so bad steam was blowing out of all the coolant hoses. You're saying that's a coincidence?
If that was the only issue, maybe, maybe not. But in the larger context of your alternator and fan issues, I would flip that question back to you that you would think it's a coincidence that some of the issues were related to overheating, but others (e.g. alternator bracket) were not? Driving 10,000 miles doesn't really matter... people always opine "But yesterday it was working fine!"... that's just how many things fail - they're fine, until they aren't.

This is all just odds - statistics. You might be the outlier, but when there are several accounts from several sources that have unusually similar patterns of failure, the likelihood that they share a cause is very high.

Also, I read the report. Michegin Scientific. They didn't mention anything about accessories on the engine cracking, or the water pump. They did mention of course the flywheel but we all knew that. If you have another report that says water pump covers crack, I would love to read it.
There are several reports. I'm pretty sure somewhere in this chain all of them were linked, and at one point I even quoted directly from it. Yes, the military report that I'm referring to goes through the exact failure process that both you and I have had (e.g. water pump, alternator bracket, etc.). If it wasn't in this post, it has been discussed in several others (like the one titled something like "Help! My new LMTV is blowing water pumps and breaking alternators"), which are also linked to, with the names of the reports to google, in my "Common Issues" document in my signature.

And I offered a reasonable alternative view of events. The cover is bolted to the housing by what, six, or seven bolts or whatever. They are made out of different materials. When one is rapidly heated or cooled they are going to expand and contract at different rates and something is going to crack - related to the idea of why bridges have expansion joints. The rapid heating that accompanies a boil-over sure qualifies in my mind.
That's not really how that works. You're mixing the ideas of thermal cycling and thermal expansion. The aluminum does have a smaller (about 1/2) Coefficient of Thermal Expansion than steel in the bolts (i.e. the cover will grow more while the bolts grow less, as temp increases, so stress will increase with temperature), but the differences we're talking about here are very small (e.g. maybe a thousandth), partly because the "overheating" we're talking about is only maybe a 25-degree change from a more normal "acceptable" temp that wouldn't be expected to cause any issues. And even then, a crack is not the likely failure (cracks are usually fatigue failures). Most likely would be that you would rip out the threads in the aluminum or stretch the bolts beyond their yield point (and then it would leak after it cooled and bolts were "too long").
 

aleigh

Well-known member
1,040
52
48
Location
Phoenix, AZ & Seattle, WA
My alternator bracket didn't fail. A bolt fell out. Which was - and I have admitted this over and over to anyone who will listen - loose. A loose bolt worked out. Once it fell out yes it snapped off. Who can blame it? I'd feel suicidal too if my owner maintained me that poorly.

About the water pump cover, my problem with it is this. Why just that. There are dozens of other things bolted to the engine. Or even if it's the alternator bracket/bolts and the water pump you say - why not the starter, oil pan, air compressor. Why doesn't the voltage regulator fall off the alternator - the cover falls off the water pump. Why the water pump and not the thermostat housing block. Why not the throttle body. Why not why not why not.

What I am hearing is the axles have problems (I allow this, sure they do) and then someone has an unrelated failure and then they blame the axle retroactively. If someone's axle snaps off the truck or they crack their flywheel or transmission output shaft, I am 115% on team axle vibration.

If this is magic of why only these handful of parts are so unduly affected is explained in some report, if you want to cite it when it's convenient to you, I non-sarcastically really want to read it.

Things I would consider - the engines came fine from Cat and then the crap S&S lashed onto it after the fact had problems. Although that still doesn't explain the WP covers.
 

Awesomeness

Well-known member
Steel Soldiers Supporter
1,813
1,518
113
Location
Orlando, FL
Ok, so "loose bolt", but how do you explain the bolt working loose? As you've said before, the alternator is a static part, so vibration loosened the bolt seems a likely explanation.

Your second paragraph argument really isn't logical. "Why the water pump and not the starter?" Simple, because it's the weakest link. Of all the parts bolted to the engine, the water pump appears to be the weakest - it fails first. At that point, the driver stops to fix it, and nothing else is broken. But in cases where the water pump has been repaired with a fresh minimally-fatigued cover, the stories then have other things from your list break. Whether the vibration [theory] directly breaks stuff, or it loosens the bolts and then the freedom of movement breaks them, is largely irrelevant because if you don't stop the vibration it's just going to break something else soon (or loosen it's bolts, if that's the way you want to imagine it). There are a bunch of posts around here of people's air compressor working loose and breaking the front engine cover, and I broke my starter off, so it's not that there are no cases.

Here's the post I mentioned, where I quote the military study: https://www.steelsoldiers.com/showt...or-brackets!&p=2077495&viewfull=1#post2077495

The axles don't have problems, the driveshafts do. So really your question should be "Why is it breaking engine stuff before axle stuff?", and the answer is that the axles DON'T have problems (whatever that means... they're stout, they have their own suspension, their natural resonance frequency isn't at the frequency the driveshafts are generating, etc.).
 

aleigh

Well-known member
1,040
52
48
Location
Phoenix, AZ & Seattle, WA
When the lower bolt was last assembled it was not loc-tited, and the last time I put it on I didn't use a torque wrench and then didn't inspect it for a year. Maybe a couple times I pulled on the alt to see if it was loose. I even had a TODO to PMCS that before I left because I knew it was an issue but I was tight on a schedule and was stupid. There were also the other issues mentioned in this thread because my particular alternator was missing a press-in bushing so the clearances were wrong and badly bodged by someone prior to me using washers, but it wasn't quite right. This was 100% my fault, and I am paying the fine right now.

Thanks for referring me to that report. I'll read it in full, but have not yet. The claim here (from your quote) seems to be that vibration from the alternator is transmitted to the water pump via the alt bracket and they suppose that is cracking the covers. The problem that I see with that theory is it should crack the housing, since that is actually what the bracket bolts into. Keep in mind ALSO that it's not like the WP vibrates independently of the engine, which it is firmly bolted to.

Also I am not sure a sample size of 1 is really conclusive. The bracket is also supported by those two large bolts at the bottom, which they also observe. I read words like "opinion" and "reduce". And the 60 lbs (whatever fraction of which is actually transmitted to the pump housing) is in line with other large alternators installed on 3116 engines in applications all over the world. So in some ways this theory supposes that the alternator is somehow particularly affected by the magical resonance frequency and is therefore imparting all this stress on the pump and and.

I find it just a lot easier to believe it's a 22 year old truck that I bought and then pounded down thousands of miles of dirt roads at 45mph while failing to maintain properly. I've actually jumped it at least twice, all four wheels. They come down pretty nice, actually, I've got marks where the leaf bumpers hit.

So I am not trying to say there was not some problem. Or even that there is not some problem affecting many trucks. I am not trying to say I shouldn't go get my shafts spun to see if they are balanced. That's some great advice, given the history of problems. I don't want to crack driveline parts. I object to people telling me that MY problem THIS time was caused by this phenomena when - since given that I am am the authority on how and where this truck was driven, and for how long, and what has happened to it maintenance wise. I've driven it several times more than the military has at this point.
 
Last edited:

1951M1078

Well-known member
1,018
185
63
Location
Glendale,AZ
My head hurts after reading this.

So I had a bad voltage regulator. Got one from Will and all is good now. But----- as I am replacing it I look at the Alt. belts and they are a little loose. So I dive in to make a adjustment. Who the **** puts a bolt under a belt ? So I take the water pump idler pulley lose. And I find the top 2 bolts loose on the Alt. belt idler pulley bracket loose . I had found the bottom bolt loose when I got the truck and cleaned it out a Red locktite it back in. She is still tight but ---- I'm sure I checked the other bolts ? (Could this be the same thing I read about .) And in putting things back I find the top 2 bolts are MM and the bottom one is SAE ? All is back together and I think its all good . ?????
 

snowtrac nome

Well-known member
1,674
139
63
Location
western alaska
I thought mine was having regulator problems too since the temps dropped to -20. turns out its just the gauge I gave it a couple taps and the needle jumped right up to 28 volts
 

aleigh

Well-known member
1,040
52
48
Location
Phoenix, AZ & Seattle, WA
My head hurts after reading this.

So I had a bad voltage regulator. Got one from Will and all is good now. But----- as I am replacing it I look at the Alt. belts and they are a little loose. So I dive in to make a adjustment. Who the **** puts a bolt under a belt ? So I take the water pump idler pulley lose. And I find the top 2 bolts loose on the Alt. belt idler pulley bracket loose . I had found the bottom bolt loose when I got the truck and cleaned it out a Red locktite it back in. She is still tight but ---- I'm sure I checked the other bolts ? (Could this be the same thing I read about .) And in putting things back I find the top 2 bolts are MM and the bottom one is SAE ? All is back together and I think its all good . ?????
I don't know what "a little loose" means, like finger tight? That's bad if so. My bolts all seemed to be right, including the bolts that hold the fan clutch to the engine. Mine didn't have loc-tite either (like later became required). One thing I noticed though is a lot of the torque specs aren't really... a lot. For example, the water pump to engine bolts are ~40lb/ft. The tensioner bolts are ~35lb/ft. So with a ratchet they back off easy.
 

juanprado

Well-known member
Steel Soldiers Supporter
5,614
2,922
113
Location
Metairie/La (N'awlins)
My head hurts after reading this.

So I had a bad voltage regulator. Got one from Will and all is good now. But----- as I am replacing it I look at the Alt. belts and they are a little loose. So I dive in to make a adjustment. Who the **** puts a bolt under a belt ? So I take the water pump idler pulley lose. And I find the top 2 bolts loose on the Alt. belt idler pulley bracket loose . I had found the bottom bolt loose when I got the truck and cleaned it out a Red locktite it back in. She is still tight but ---- I'm sure I checked the other bolts ? (Could this be the same thing I read about .) And in putting things back I find the top 2 bolts are MM and the bottom one is SAE ? All is back together and I think its all good . ?????
I do not have first hand experience with this motor but I would be very suspicious of mixed metric and sae bolts going into the same block. Metric bolts have numerical hardness stamped on the heads and sae have line patterns on the heads. I would triple check to make sure you have the correct fastner and that the hole has not stripped or forced with the wrong bolt to save you grief down the road.
 

Aernan

Member
510
19
18
Location
San Jose/California
When I replaced the missing bolt in my alternator I just pushed the tensioner with my hand and tightened it down. The belts are not max tight but they seem to work great so I'm not messing with it. It's miles away from a modern car with a spring tensioner.
 

coachgeo

Well-known member
5,147
3,462
113
Location
North of Cincy OH
I do not have first hand experience with this motor but I would be very suspicious of mixed metric and sae bolts going into the same block. Metric bolts have numerical hardness stamped on the heads and sae have line patterns on the heads. I would triple check to make sure you have the correct fastner and that the hole has not stripped or forced with the wrong bolt to save you grief down the road.
wellllll..... engine is metric.... from what have read it was somewhere early in the CAT line of being all metric...... but that being said..... all the brackets etc. are manufactured to meet the truck's needs and in design factors there may have been not much desire to try to match the engine's thread standard. Thus it is very possible attachments bolted into threaded engine holes are metric, but bracket to bracket... bracket to Aux item; like alternator, etc. could be SAE. Many have mentioned the mix of both Metric and SAE on their FMTV's
 
Last edited:

snowtrac nome

Well-known member
1,674
139
63
Location
western alaska
Check your cat bolts cat is good for using bolts that have metric threads, but head sizes that work with both size wrenches, like 16 mm heads which interchange with 5/8.
 

aleigh

Well-known member
1,040
52
48
Location
Phoenix, AZ & Seattle, WA
So in the end; replaced the alternator mounting hardware, radiator, belts, fan clutch, water pump, some of the silicone hose (wow that is expensive) for the charge lines, and a lot of the fasteners. Got it all buttoned up real nice.

Made it ~70 miles up I-5... and the engine exploded. Blew all its oil out the passenger side all down the truck. Was just driving fine, then it lost power. Saw smoke in the mirror, got the oil pressure idiot light just after, pulled it over and it died. Won't even turn over now. RIP.

I'm out of time on this little adventure so I'm going to have to park it somewhere and fly back to Arizona, to start looking for a new engine.
 
Last edited:

scottmandu

Active member
822
36
28
Location
Texas
Yikes thats a big shame! Do you knoe what failed? The only thing I can think of on that side of the engine that sees oil pressure is the turbo oil supply line.
 

scottmandu

Active member
822
36
28
Location
Texas
Check your cat bolts cat is good for using bolts that have metric threads, but head sizes that work with both size wrenches, like 16 mm heads which interchange with 5/8.
Its not that caaterpillar makes special bolts its that the sizes are close enough to be able to use both sae and metric tools. 16mm is close enough to 5/8 as is 11/16 with 17mm and 3/4 with 19mm, 7/16 and 11mm, and 13mm with 1/2.
 
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website like our supporting vendors. Their ads help keep Steel Soldiers going. Please consider disabling your ad blockers for the site. Thanks!

I've Disabled AdBlock
No Thanks