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Here is a view with the filter base removed. Second image shows the back side of the filter base.
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Check valve for oil filters?
- Thread starter Stretch44875
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Great pics. Looks like what I thought it might. The pic of the tractor motor is not as detailed. I have luber-finer sending me some info on filter setup that can be used a primary. It is big though, single canister. I just rather not go with bypass filter. I guess the thing is I will spend the money. $500.00 to help my motor, cheap in my world.
Cranetruck do you want to sell that cooler plate oil thingy?
Cranetruck do you want to sell that cooler plate oil thingy?
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Sell? Not really, I use these "junk" parts for pictures and when planning new projects. Should be plenty around from other parts engines.
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Does anyone have a spare oil pan plug from the main sump? I want to experiment, and will have to drill and tap one for a fitting to be a source of oil for a prelube. I want to take from the pan and give to the 1/2" pipe fitting, if possible. This is unless someone has a lazier source of oil to do the job.
Could a banjo-type fitting be used in the opil plug? the plug is mighty large.. and that would eliminate having to unscrew any 90-degree lines, etc.. when changing oil.
I went to the hardware store and bought a 1/2' NPT male to 1/4"NPT female plug, a 1/4" street elbow, a 3" pipe 1/4", and a 1/4" cap to cap it off. i am going to try to put this on that place where the 1/2" NPT plug is, and see how it all fits. An injector line might be sort of in the way, so we will have to see.
I looked into the pressurixing tank system, and it would take a huge tank to fill those oil filter cans and then lube the bearings.
Could a banjo-type fitting be used in the opil plug? the plug is mighty large.. and that would eliminate having to unscrew any 90-degree lines, etc.. when changing oil.
I went to the hardware store and bought a 1/2' NPT male to 1/4"NPT female plug, a 1/4" street elbow, a 3" pipe 1/4", and a 1/4" cap to cap it off. i am going to try to put this on that place where the 1/2" NPT plug is, and see how it all fits. An injector line might be sort of in the way, so we will have to see.
I looked into the pressurixing tank system, and it would take a huge tank to fill those oil filter cans and then lube the bearings.
m139h2otruck
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Since this post has morphed into an oil system discussion two items:
One, has anyone looked into the SpinnerII bypass filter system that uses a high speed turbine to remove the soot from the oil. Their web site @ www.spinnerii.com shows a number of units that could be used on our trucks both with and without air. No idea of the pricing, but this item would solve the small end of the filter/micron rating question and apparently is well proven.
The second item, on the filter bases and truck rated filters, the Perma-Cool base #6630 that bottleworks is using can also hold the WIX #51792 rated at 29 gpm and 19 microns w/o bypass or the #57012 w/ bypass (@30 psi!) and 23 microns. Both of these filters are 12"+ tall and 5"+ in diameter.
Both WIX and Perma-Cool have real good web sites with a lot of useful information.
One, has anyone looked into the SpinnerII bypass filter system that uses a high speed turbine to remove the soot from the oil. Their web site @ www.spinnerii.com shows a number of units that could be used on our trucks both with and without air. No idea of the pricing, but this item would solve the small end of the filter/micron rating question and apparently is well proven.
The second item, on the filter bases and truck rated filters, the Perma-Cool base #6630 that bottleworks is using can also hold the WIX #51792 rated at 29 gpm and 19 microns w/o bypass or the #57012 w/ bypass (@30 psi!) and 23 microns. Both of these filters are 12"+ tall and 5"+ in diameter.
Both WIX and Perma-Cool have real good web sites with a lot of useful information.
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Patrick, this image may help you decide where to inject the prelube oil.
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M139 checked out wix 57012. Not a bad filter beta 2/75 23/45 nom 23 microns.
Is full flow and has bypass valve. Did not say if there was a remote filter base that would work. Will call them.
Is full flow and has bypass valve. Did not say if there was a remote filter base that would work. Will call them.
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Hey Bjorn, so you sure the little port there is the pre-filter? That wotld make it far easier than trying to reach the 1/2" plug. Volume would be low but I am patient..
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Positive, Patrick. That's why the thing is taken apart, to check the plumbing.
devilman96
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When you call Wix or whom ever you really have to be careful of what they tell you... Yes a base they have listed on their computer will screw many filters on to it... but the computer doesn't tell them that all of the bases have a oring grove cut into them and that the thread depth is not cut far enough to allow a oil filter to seal on the base.
The mentioned filter uses a 1.5-16 thread which is used both in oil and hyd application but oil filters don't fit hyd bases due to thread depth and orings... (they are made differently on purpose) Vickers, Stauff, Marion, Wix, Baldwin, etc hyd bases are all the same... Not that I am tying to discourage anyone but most of what your looking at in filters and the likes I already have purchased and discarded or already had / have sitting in my parts inventory or the inventory of some of my vendors which I have already unboxed and sized up.
When your looking at filters... Look for common over the road filters that are used / sold in quantity... Cat, Cummings, etc... The cost on those will be much lower as they move in higher volumes and will usually have better filtration ratings. An example is the above filter 57012 which is only used on a select group of Deere engines... Its list is $38.12... where as a 51792 used on Cats give higher ratings across the board and the list is $25.09 Pending the store your buying from and their need to rape and pillage you that filter is proably much less (my cost is $17)...
Also the common filters like the 1970, and 1792 are available in XD, XE versions... You get the same flow specs (28-30 GPM) with a 5 micron / B2-5 rating which is rather amazing.
Again... I don't want to discourage anyone from anything... If you find a number or something you think will work post it up. If I have not tired it, or don't have it I can usually "borrow" one from one of my vendors to size it up.
The mentioned filter uses a 1.5-16 thread which is used both in oil and hyd application but oil filters don't fit hyd bases due to thread depth and orings... (they are made differently on purpose) Vickers, Stauff, Marion, Wix, Baldwin, etc hyd bases are all the same... Not that I am tying to discourage anyone but most of what your looking at in filters and the likes I already have purchased and discarded or already had / have sitting in my parts inventory or the inventory of some of my vendors which I have already unboxed and sized up.
When your looking at filters... Look for common over the road filters that are used / sold in quantity... Cat, Cummings, etc... The cost on those will be much lower as they move in higher volumes and will usually have better filtration ratings. An example is the above filter 57012 which is only used on a select group of Deere engines... Its list is $38.12... where as a 51792 used on Cats give higher ratings across the board and the list is $25.09 Pending the store your buying from and their need to rape and pillage you that filter is proably much less (my cost is $17)...
Also the common filters like the 1970, and 1792 are available in XD, XE versions... You get the same flow specs (28-30 GPM) with a 5 micron / B2-5 rating which is rather amazing.
Again... I don't want to discourage anyone from anything... If you find a number or something you think will work post it up. If I have not tired it, or don't have it I can usually "borrow" one from one of my vendors to size it up.
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The opening is a 3/8 NPT, the square head requires a 7/16" square socket (Thanks Bjorn). I wonder how much pressure there would be required to at least crack the "15PSI minimum" piston cooling valve. I have my doubts that once this opens, the pressure would rise much higher with a small electric pump. 10-15 PSI should be more than enough though to fill the filters and crank and start with.
Supposing I find a gearpump that can do 50PSI, and the 3/8" fitting is the smallest restriction, well I am trying to recall from school the calculations for resistance to viscous flow in a system. Although the engine's oil pump is rated for a huge amount of volume, I suspect much is simply bypassed by the regulator on the passenger side of the engine once the pressure reaches the 60PSI. (speaking of which I wonder if those members reporting low oil pressures could have sticky or otherwise troubled regulators)
Well, this easy-to-reach fitting (Thanks Bjorn!!) solves half the equation. If only there were an easy way to get oil up out of the crankcase without using the drain plug. I have a slight aversion to the drain plug because crud can collect there but on the 2.5 ton, the deep sump is up front and any leak can be seen easily, and the connection can be checked easily.
-- Hey I don't want to totally hijack the thread since it is for check valves. But would a check valve really do that much? It looks like the oil would drain down into the bearings as well as back to the oil pump.
Supposing I find a gearpump that can do 50PSI, and the 3/8" fitting is the smallest restriction, well I am trying to recall from school the calculations for resistance to viscous flow in a system. Although the engine's oil pump is rated for a huge amount of volume, I suspect much is simply bypassed by the regulator on the passenger side of the engine once the pressure reaches the 60PSI. (speaking of which I wonder if those members reporting low oil pressures could have sticky or otherwise troubled regulators)
Well, this easy-to-reach fitting (Thanks Bjorn!!) solves half the equation. If only there were an easy way to get oil up out of the crankcase without using the drain plug. I have a slight aversion to the drain plug because crud can collect there but on the 2.5 ton, the deep sump is up front and any leak can be seen easily, and the connection can be checked easily.
-- Hey I don't want to totally hijack the thread since it is for check valves. But would a check valve really do that much? It looks like the oil would drain down into the bearings as well as back to the oil pump.
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Well devilman I was looking at one of you posts on this thread and saw the V+S industrial supply. The have a VS992 double manifold and the baldwin filter b239. has 30lb. bypass and 20 micron thread is 1.5 -16 Will call baldwin and see if they have anything better. Thanks
Heck you are doing all the hard work. For me if I can find an old filter base to work off of I will have what I think will work soon.
Heck you are doing all the hard work. For me if I can find an old filter base to work off of I will have what I think will work soon.
tbrenner
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I thought someone mentioned that there is a difference between the full flow and bypass remote filter bases. What is the difference?
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Prelubing via the filter housing port(s) may not be possible, if the oil drains back to the pan when the oil pump stops, why wouldn't it be pushed back that way with the external pump also?
The "oil entrance" marked in one image above is the ideal location for a check valve and may be the answer to the very first post in this thread. If a check valve could be installed here, the filters and oil cooler wouldn't drain and we would have a much faster "to pressure" condition.
I'm not sure that the idea of a bypass filter has been explained, since it's such a great solution. With a bypass filter in the system, filtering the oil at a much slower rate and down to 5 or 10 microns, the entire oil supply will keep getting dilluted with cleaner and cleaner oil. After so many cycles all the oil will have gone thru the by pass filter. It is not done as fast as a full flow filter, it may take 10 or 20 cycles to clean the oil. When you are on the road and running the engine at rpm, that may only be minutes anyway, so no problem, all the oil will eventually be cleaned to the level of the by pass filter. One can express the procedure mathematically if needed, just think of the new oil entering the bypass filter as having 5% less soot than previous batch etc etc.
It's possible that oils from the period, when the engine was designed, (I'm checking this one) did not suspend soot particles and they simply settled out in the pan, meaning that they didn't need to be filtered out.
Newer oils demand a finer filter, thus the need for a bypass filter....still checking.
The deuce filters operate with relatively low pressure (bypass at only 15 psi) and may be very efficient that way. New full flow filters, mentioned above has a bypass pressure of twice that, perhaps they get clogged quicker....
The "oil entrance" marked in one image above is the ideal location for a check valve and may be the answer to the very first post in this thread. If a check valve could be installed here, the filters and oil cooler wouldn't drain and we would have a much faster "to pressure" condition.
I'm not sure that the idea of a bypass filter has been explained, since it's such a great solution. With a bypass filter in the system, filtering the oil at a much slower rate and down to 5 or 10 microns, the entire oil supply will keep getting dilluted with cleaner and cleaner oil. After so many cycles all the oil will have gone thru the by pass filter. It is not done as fast as a full flow filter, it may take 10 or 20 cycles to clean the oil. When you are on the road and running the engine at rpm, that may only be minutes anyway, so no problem, all the oil will eventually be cleaned to the level of the by pass filter. One can express the procedure mathematically if needed, just think of the new oil entering the bypass filter as having 5% less soot than previous batch etc etc.
It's possible that oils from the period, when the engine was designed, (I'm checking this one) did not suspend soot particles and they simply settled out in the pan, meaning that they didn't need to be filtered out.
Newer oils demand a finer filter, thus the need for a bypass filter....still checking.
The deuce filters operate with relatively low pressure (bypass at only 15 psi) and may be very efficient that way. New full flow filters, mentioned above has a bypass pressure of twice that, perhaps they get clogged quicker....
devilman96
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Bypass filter bases have a flow restriction in them, they allow oil in usually through a 1/2NPT or larger fitting and the exit fitting is the same size but have a 1/8th" hole in the base for oil exit (this is usually located in the stud the filter screws on to)... This hole slows the oil down allowing it to filter better.
If you cross over any of the filters I've mentioned 1792XD, etc to Baldwin numbers you will find the same spec filters. The B99 had a extended drain version which gets into the really low micron ranges. I have the feeling that the higher classed over the road filters are prolly made by one company and then resold to all of the others as every one I've seen is the exact same construction.
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Possible check valve location. Available depth is about 1-1/2 inches....
With the filter base removed like this any decent machine shop should be able to install a check valve.
Makes one wonder why it wasn't done from the beginning.
Suitable check valves may be found here (material, flow rates etc must be right for the application):
http://www.circle-seal.com/prod/check/check.html
With the filter base removed like this any decent machine shop should be able to install a check valve.
Makes one wonder why it wasn't done from the beginning.
Suitable check valves may be found here (material, flow rates etc must be right for the application):
http://www.circle-seal.com/prod/check/check.html
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devilman96
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Speaking of devils advocate... In looking at the flow / psi drop specs on those valves I don't know if it would be a good idea. 15-20 psi is a lot in the over all scheme of things...
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There are other check valves, of course. A flow rating (Cv) of about 7 would produce a drop of about 8 psi at 20 gpm, which should be acceptable.
I was doing some preliminary pressure testing this morning and starting at 30°F produced a pre-filter pressure of 95 psi!! It dropped to about 60 after 5 minutes and later settled at a low of 25 psi, which seems to be a problem for me.
The dash gauge indicated 45 psi to start and later settled at about 20 psi, again my problem. In any case, the filters were most likely bypassed at startup, with a pressure differential of 30-40 psi.
Currently, I'm using 15W30 oil.
About a gallon of air must be despensed of at start-up with the filter canisters empty....
More results to come, yes and pictures too, you can count on that.
I was doing some preliminary pressure testing this morning and starting at 30°F produced a pre-filter pressure of 95 psi!! It dropped to about 60 after 5 minutes and later settled at a low of 25 psi, which seems to be a problem for me.
The dash gauge indicated 45 psi to start and later settled at about 20 psi, again my problem. In any case, the filters were most likely bypassed at startup, with a pressure differential of 30-40 psi.
Currently, I'm using 15W30 oil.
About a gallon of air must be despensed of at start-up with the filter canisters empty....
More results to come, yes and pictures too, you can count on that.
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Many thanks to all the people checking into the oiling/filtering system. I haven't been replying much, some of the guys here are much better at researching the different filters and such.
I like your possible location of a check valve, cranetruck. Looks like a messy job to pull the filter housing off, with the coolant and oil passages. Sounds like your truck has some worn bearings, with the lower oil pressure at temperature.
I take it you had a before and after gauge on the filters to measure the differential pressure? Or were you able to use the stock oil pressure gauge for one of them?
If the Ldt's oil pump puts out 22gpm at 2600, then at 800 rpm, or idle, it would put out 6.7 gpm. So if the filters hold 1 gallon of oil, should take 9 seconds to fill just the filters. Wonder how much oil the cooler and rest of the engine hold?
If someone does add a prelube, and plumbs it in to the filter housing, the check valve in cranetrucks location would prevent the oil from going back to pan, and allow you to build some pressure.
Couple of different ideas going on in this thread, keep working at them and maybe we can improve the longevity of our trucks.
Dennis
I like your possible location of a check valve, cranetruck. Looks like a messy job to pull the filter housing off, with the coolant and oil passages. Sounds like your truck has some worn bearings, with the lower oil pressure at temperature.
I take it you had a before and after gauge on the filters to measure the differential pressure? Or were you able to use the stock oil pressure gauge for one of them?
If the Ldt's oil pump puts out 22gpm at 2600, then at 800 rpm, or idle, it would put out 6.7 gpm. So if the filters hold 1 gallon of oil, should take 9 seconds to fill just the filters. Wonder how much oil the cooler and rest of the engine hold?
If someone does add a prelube, and plumbs it in to the filter housing, the check valve in cranetrucks location would prevent the oil from going back to pan, and allow you to build some pressure.
Couple of different ideas going on in this thread, keep working at them and maybe we can improve the longevity of our trucks.
Dennis
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devilman96
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Bjorn,
Can you explane the methodology you used for the testing? I would like to run the same on mine, if we do them identically it would give a base line for comparison on at least 2 trucks and maybe someone else could join in? Patrick??? The more numbers to compare the better.
Can you explane the methodology you used for the testing? I would like to run the same on mine, if we do them identically it would give a base line for comparison on at least 2 trucks and maybe someone else could join in? Patrick??? The more numbers to compare the better.