Check valve for oil filters?

[Floridianson]

All I can say is yes this thread is all over the place. Just when I think we are talking about bypass valves, smack me up side the head where on bypass filters. I get geared up on bypass filters and where back on bypass valves. OK I think where on check valves right.
Think we need to start a thread on accumulator's. One on bypass valves and one on bypass filters.
I have been told by manufacture of accumulator's that no check valve would be needed that gears in oil pump should be tight enough to hold back pressure.
I still want to redo the primary filtering and with you guys help I think I am on track.
I see the benefits of a bypass oil filtration system and that could be add to my motor later.
Devilman thanks the B99 full flow has 23 nom.45 abslo. balwin found B7180 full flow 12 nom. 25 abslo. that would fit the filter base VS992 you found. I can live with that for pri. oil filter. Think if I can mount it just a little lower than entrance and exit holes in block I will have a little faster pump up time to the bearings.

 

[cranetruck]

Bjorn,

Can you explane the methodology you used for the testing? I would like to run the same on mine, if we do them identically it would give a base line for comparison on at least 2 trucks and maybe someone else could join in? Patrick??? The more numbers to compare the better.

Mike, the results are only preliminary. It was 30°F yesterday morning and I'll have to check it several more times at different engine temps.
Anyhow, a mechanical pressure gauge was installed in the "prefilter" port (shown above) for the initial run.
I'll outline the procedure when I have more data.

 

[devilman96]

Speaking of... What in Sams snot were you doing outside playing with your truck in 30 degree weather???? I will not go outside for free money below 50!!!! If ya can run it around 70 degrees I can get something more comparable and I don't have to worry about FL frost bite! lol

 

[Floridianson]

I told my son last week that I wanted to get a oil gage and check it with the one in the cab. What do you want me to do and where do you want it pluged in. No problem.

 

[Stretch44875]

I just had a great big DUH! moment. Flordianson is was told correctly that no check valve is needed. A postive displacement, gear type pump would be self-checking. A gear motor is the same as a gear pump, for the oil to drain into the pan, the pump would have to spin backwards.

The reason the filters are empty is because they are high on the engine, and the filter cans face up, allowing the oil to flow into the engine on the filtered side, and thru the bearings, not through the pump.

It was mentioned that placing the filters lower would help. The good news is that the filters don't dump crud back into the pan everytime the engine is shut off.
This also means installing a preluber would work.

The only way I see to prevent the stock filters from draining, would be to install a pressure relief inline with the filtered oil output on the cooler/filter housing, set it for 5-10 psi, and make sure it is able to flow enough oil. Sounds a bit more complicated.

I know other people are working the filter ideas, keep them coming.

Dennis

 

[houdel]

Speaking of... What in Sams snot were you doing outside playing with your truck in 30 degree weather????

He was outside playing with his truck in 30 degree weather because he was having a HEAT WAVE!!!!! Here it is 6 degrees outside now and getting colder! That's why I haven't gone outside to figure out if it is my master cylinder or my stoplight switch that is leaking brake fluid. That, and I'd have to shovel too much snow out of the way to crawl under there.

Bjorn - BTW, I haven't forgotten about the valve cover gasket set, it has just been a little hectic for me this week!

 

[cranetruck]

The reason the filters are empty is because they are high on the engine, and the filter cans face up, allowing the oil to flow into the engine on the filtered side, and thru the bearings, not through the pump.
Dennis

Another midcourse correction....it's not obvious from the images, but the filtered oil enters the cooler at the bottom and exits at the top where the sampling valve would be installed. A channel inside the casting runs the oil back down and out to the bearings etc.
Only about a 1/4 of the canister is above the cooler and only that much of the filtered oil could drain into the engine.
If it doesn't flow back via the pump, I don't know how it gets back into the pan, not yet anyway....
I'm about to take the pan off the parts engine and find out, as soon as this wind dies down, that is.

 

[OPCOM]

Bjorn,

Can you explane the methodology you used for the testing? I would like to run the same on mine, if we do them identically it would give a base line for comparison on at least 2 trucks and maybe someone else could join in? Patrick??? The more numbers to compare the better.

I''ll have to find a 100-120PSI spare oil guage. There are some water and air guages at the hardware store but i don't really trust them with oil for some reason.

 

[OPCOM]

Prelubing via the filter housing port(s) may not be possible, if the oil drains back to the pan when the oil pump stops, why wouldn't it be pushed back that way with the external pump also? ....

That is a good point. It might be interesting to see how long it takes for the oil to drain back out of the filters, hot and cold. Looking at the diagrams, it would have two paths:

1. to drain backwards through the oil pump and this should be rather slow if the pump is good.

2. to drain through the oil galleries into the bearings and then into the pan.

So, the test would be to start the engine and note the time needed to get pressure, then stop it for increasing intervals and re-start, until the original "time to pressure" is reached.

Then it is very interestingly known how fast the filter housing drains, and if the volume of the oil filter system is known, it is known how much prelube oil volume per unit time is required to achieve equilibrium.

This equilibrium will be reached at a very low pressure because it is merely the amount necessary to keep the filters full against the gravity-induced drainback.

Furthermore, I submit that after a short period of the drainback time, the majority of the drainback occurs through the oil pump because as the oil seeks to fall, air must displace it in the oil filter housings, and as the sump is immersed in oil, the air can only come from the after-filter side, perhaps partially sucking the bearings and galleries dry. That is frightening..

 

[Floridianson]

Just a thought but with the 15lb bypass valve in our motors I would be willing to bet that all of our motors are bypassing when the motor oil is cold. Want to help your motor? Plug in heater for the oil anytime you are going to use the beast.
I still think some oil will find it's way back through the pump just not at a high rate.
Same for the bearings.
Seems with any type of preluber we are not looking to hold 60lb for ten min. Just 10lb for 30 seconds.

 

[Stretch44875]

The pics you posted on the previous page cranetruck, was the oil exit/entrance labeled for the block or filter? Or when you say exit, is it exit from the filter housing, or exit from the block?

Dennis

 

[cranetruck]

Okay, revised images...

 

[Stretch44875]

Okay, I understand what you are saying about the cooler loop then. Would have to be some kind of siphoning for the oil to drain to the bearings and empty the filters.

Think there is any way pressure check the pump for backflow? Maybe pull the filter housing off, pressurize the line to the pump with oil, and install a gauge?

Dennis

 

[Westech]

do you want me to make a plate to put spin on filters on? like two of the gm big block filters? if enough guys want them done I will start making them.

 

[houdel]

There was a thread in the Deuce mod and hot rod forum where there seemed to be quite a bit of interest in spin on filters. How much $ are we talking? Spin on filters would be a convenience for filter changes, but anti drain back spin ons would be great, should solve the dry start problem with a lot simpler mod. Course, you'd have to knock a hole in the top (bottom actually, since they are installed up side down) to drain them before swapping them out, unless you want two gallons of oil running down the side of your engine.

There was a guy in the other thread who seemed very knowledgeable about the Baldwin line of filters - thread sizes, which were anti drain back, etc.

 

[OPCOM]

do you want me to make a plate to put spin on filters on? like two of the gm big block filters? if enough guys want them done I will start making them.

will we keep the oil cooler?

 

[Westech]

well i should be able to keep the cooler. I will talk to my friend and see what we can do, my guess would be at least a couple hundred.

 

[builder77]

I am wondering which way the oil flows thru the stock filters. Does oil from the oil pump come up thru the center tube bolt, or the other way?

 

[bottleworks]

I am wondering which way the oil flows thru the stock filters. Does oil from the oil pump come up thru the center tube bolt, or the other way?

The other way. It's the typical/normal setup. It flows outside to the inside, then through the center tube and to the engine.

I was sick the past few days so not much work was done on the Deuce. It seems like I shouldn't have an issue getting the remote filters done by this weekend. Looks like it should work.

 

[SasquatchSanta]

Hello,

I just spent the last three hours reading the various threads on spin-on the spin on oil filter solutions several members are working on.

Like everybody else, I'd like to eliminate dry starts AND keep the soot, Audi hub caps and other nasty stuff out of my oil.

In a perfect world, I'd rather not have to contend with the hoses that are required for mounting remote filters.

Having said this, does anyone know if remote filters are even feasible in cold weather?

I try not to get out when the weather drops below 25 below but below zero weather is common up here.