Engine Prelube Info....

[Star266]

OK! here are the pictures that additional port provides more flexibility, My next concern is a filters bypass valve that opens ~ 1800 RPM w two parallel 51970XD Wix filters simply measuring pre and post filter pressure w two identical up to 100psi mechanical gauges

 

[OPCOM]

Pretty!!! Very robust looking! Cheezwhiz, all these guys with lathes running around loose, it's scary!! And it's really good, to see the evolution of these designs based on the philosopical and technical aspects. It is a very rich talent pool on this forum.

 

[clinto]

It is a very rich talent pool on this forum.

 

[builder77]

Star from what I understand talking to WIX several times is that there is no bypass valve as you suggested above. They are referring to a bypass filter that is built into the filter that allows increased filtration of a small percentage of the oil. This is the reason for the more then double price at NAPA of $56.29 each, however I don't think this is the proper filter for applications that are upside down like ours. I believe that air is trapped at the top of filters used upside down unless forced out by the design of the filter base. Ever notice the design of the stock filter setup, and how the oil entered the filter from the bottom, and left it through the top. The original designers of these trucks knew what they were doing. The reason that I believe the 51970XD is the not correct is that the bypass filter is located at the very top in our upside down application where that air pocket would be. If no oil is going through the bypass filter then you basically have a 51970XE filter that you paid double for. Due the placement of the bypass filter it is not possible to move the filter exit higher. The 51970XD is a good filter for setups like Devilman's remote setup. I asked the WIX techs if this filter would work upside down and they were not sure. I also wonder if the air at the top reduces the amount of filter media available to the oil flow thus reducing the actual maximum flow rate of a filter. Unfortunately short of adding an effective sight glass to a filter there is no way that I know of to prove this. The 51970XD and 51970XE filters are both 5 micron filters though that are a major improvement.

What is the size of the port you built into the filter base, and what size is the hole that it feeds into? I am asking, because I am wondering if it is actually an improvement over the stock filter base port.

 

[Star266]

Builder, first the size of reduction screw is 3/4 to 1/2 inch, secondly valve that im concern is a bypass valve built in filter base that opens @ 15 psi bypassing both filters, and that alone worries me more.
I believe that valve opens at around ~1800 rpm. I agree, the issue of air being trapped may play a role,
but I think that extending the lenght of the mounting screw as far high as filter alow, should force air out.
I'm using prelube pump that was originaly put toghether by RPM performance. I found this on Ebay it uses hydraulic pump and 24V permanent magnet motor it is quite compact and provides pressure of 20-30 psi in less than 30 seconds. To give you an idea, motor is made or distributed by Western Motor Co. "WMS" Part # W-8051. I will try to take pictures of this unit probably next weekend. Oil is taken from the back part of oil pan. I have 1/2" TEE welded to the oil plug. 1/2" hose feed the input on the pump, and output goes to the 3/8" port on the bottom of oil filter base. To make sytem more friendly motor is controled by electronic timer made by ALTRONIX model: DTMR1 easy configurable and not to pricey.
My Best Regards to All
George C.
Tampa,FL
1972 M109A3

 

[cranetruck]

Builder, first the size of reduction screw is 3/4 to 1/2 inch, secondly valve that im concern is a bypass valve built in filter base that opens @ 15 psi bypassing both filters, and that alone worries me more.
I believe that valve opens at around ~1800 rpm. I agree, the issue of air being trapped may play a role......

The bypass valve in the filter base open when the differerential pressure (the pressure across the filters) exceeds 15 psi. Don't understand where the rpm comes into the picture....
This pressure is a function of blockage within the filters and the clean (original) filter diff pressure is less than 5 psi.

 

[jimk]

Under certain conditions the volume will increase with rpm. Also, the differential may be high when filter is partially loaded and/or the oil is cold. I do worry about the latter. There may(?) also be a moment of bypass when oil first arrives at empty filters.

Bypass valves serve a few functions. Probably the primary one is to 'protect' engines from clogged filters, though I have to wonder how protected the bearings ' feel' when dirty oil arrives. That won't be an issue with a clean engine, or an engine of a conscientious owner who exceeds service needs. All my Pontiac's have this valve removed and plugged. I made an adapter for the stolly that has uses a modern 5 micron Volvo spin-on filter (the Rolls felt filter is reported to be ~25mic). Because of the higher restriction I raised the bypass opening from 9 to 17psi, and now use a multi-grage (15W-40). With both engines I avoid high rpm when the oil is cold. I have been considering a similar change to the deuce. With the oil heater the cold oil issue would be only a concern for the first few minutes. JimK

Stalwart spin on filter adapter details/drawing (password protected- join or pm me for details ~200Kb)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Stolly/files/spin-on oil filter adapter/

 

[Star266]

That gives me an idea to add one more parallel filter /not bypass/to the system, where that adapter port will become handy, and hopefully with three filters in parallel differetial pressure will not exceed that magic 15 psi. as a side note filters are new and oil is a synthetic Rotella T 5W-40.
Jimk, as you said volume increases with rpm and I cannot be precise but what I'm observing is that @ ~ 1700 -1800 rpm 15 psi level is achieved and that defference stays as rpm goes higher. those findings do not make me happy. I will be looking for oil filter base for WIX 51970 XD thread size filter thread size 1 1/2 - 12.
After that I may consider to increase bypass valve pressure

Again, Great Thanks for your responses !
George C.
Tampa, FL

 

[FSBruva]

Star-

How are you monitoring the pre and post filter pressures?

Matt

 

[Star266]

Matt,
I don't have specific differencial pressure meassuring gauge, what I'm actually testing is a pressure at two points one pre filter @ the bottom of filter base @ 3/8" port, and the another post filter at the top of oil cooler where oil sampling valve is located. I'm using two Stewart-Warner mechanical gauges. @ 2300-2400RPM
prefilter pressure is ~90psi and post filter is ~75 consistently. Dash gauge/deuce electrical/ shows ~50-55psi.

George C.
Tampa,FL

 

[FSBruva]

George-

New filters, and everything?

Matt

 

[jimk]

Big rigs often use 2 large in parallel. Since they get regular service I'd guess the pair may be more for the surface area/cold oil/ press differential issue, than filters 'clogged' with dirt. Commercial trucks do range far and wide, often into very cold climates. The 06' Mack I drive has a 3rd centrifugal filter. Never researched system but guess it would be a bypass deal. Had it fall off once(well the bolt broke) I noticed the rotating filter had lugs for mechanical drive. The engine did seemed to run ok (3 miles) with no oil. LOL

Filter volume -may- increase with RPM. Pump volume increases with rpm. Before the relief opens filter volume will increase with rpm. Afterwards filter volume will increase as oil gets thinner(multi-fuel). The stolly system is different as the filter is located before the relief valve so everything pumped is filtered. The engine oil goes from the scavenge pump> tank> oil
pump> filter> gallery(bearings,switch,)> relief valve (and overflow)> rockers> wheelcase jet.

Filter media seems to vary a bit between manufactures with ~5 micron near one end spectrum and ~20 at the other. I hate to think what it would rate with any by-pass open. My limited testing showed the oil temp. (relative viscosity) a big factor across high efficiency filter media like the Volvo's. I'm not a filter by-pass valve fan but could see the need for it w/dirty engines or cold climates.

Just some conjecture,maybe modern filter media is more restrictive than 60's vintage stuff. If so the by-pass valve setting might need updating. 15psi across filter seem high. Is the oil warm?? Cranetrucks pic (a few posts earlier) shows two convienent unused ports, one before filter and another after. JimK

 

[Star266]

Answer is: yes and yes, highway drive ~50mph temp. steady 180deg., oil fresh synthetic RotellaT
5W-40, filters brand New Wix 51970 XD, seems like the headache never stops, and like you said increasing filter media surface should help/third parallel filter/. Somehow there is always good and bad NEWS pretty close together.

George

 

[builder77]

The bypass valve is an interesting subject that is really just ignored as it works in the background. Star have you tested to see if you bypass valve is activated with the stock filters? I also wonder if with inlet and outlet being on the bottom if air at the top of the filter is not reducing the amount of filter media available thus reducing the max flow. It would be interesting to have this test done on several vehicles to see what is normal for the multifuel. Do you have any pics of gauge setup you are using? I doubt a third filter is needed. The stock 1133 filters are supposed to filter up to 11-13 gpm each. The 51970 is able to do 28-30 gpm each. That should be more then enough.
Thanks,
Ethan

 

[cranetruck]

If the bypass valve is open, obviously the pressure drop across the filter(s) becomes zero...
I installed a differential pressure gauge to monitor the filters, but haven't used it (=truck) much since.

 

[Star266]

Bjorn,
Differencial pressure of 15 psi is needed for bypass valve to be open, which means that 15psi have to be maitain at all times, but it also mean that measuring across the filters that pressure cannot be higher!!! with present setup./ bypass in this case means parallel/. As far, as old can filters, bypassing began sooner, and also with Rotella synthetic 5W-40 which appears to be quite light .

George

 

[cranetruck]

Hmmm..so it's more like a regulator, something else to investigate....

 

[jimk]

This system is not the same as the deuce engine but may provide some folks here some ideas. Not sure where to post but the discussion seems to be here now. Suggestions on my OT welcome. PM me or blurt it out.

When I replaced the hydraulic pump on Betty, the dirty old hoe, I added a large hydraulic filter (Ford had designed the system with just a crude suction screen.) The system is open center, meaning the pump is moving 100% of the oil at all times. When it is not doing work 100% is moving back to the tank at very low pressure. The pump is a Vickers vane type rated at 13gal/min at ? rpm (have to look it up). The remote filter base is from NAPA. The by-pass was removed and plugged. The present filter is a 10 micron NAPA #1860. It is classified as a 'hydraulic' filter, unlike the engine oil filters which are in the 'lube' group. It is paper media and has a 40gal/min rating. The oil is a 'transmission type' hydraulic , one spec. is International HyTran-5. It about as thick as hyd. fluid gets, prob. similar to 20W. There is a 60psi gauge on filter base inlet. The base outlet dumps directly to tank thru a 1" I.D line. The gauge should provide a good indication of pressure across the media. The filterand gauge are located by my wrist so over many years I have observed:

Cold oil (40-80*F), moderate (1500-2000) rpm~30psi.
Cold oil high rpm (2300) rpm~50psi (I avoid this)
Cold oil idle (600rpm)~15psi
After a few (2-3) minutes moderate rpm~15psi
Warm oil (30min)moderate rpm~10psi
Warm oil idle ~5psi
Hot oil (1-2 hour) moderate rpm~5psi

NAPA has at least 9 other hyd filters that fit this base. There are 5,6,7,10 and 25 micron medias, and various lengths. All rate 40gal/min. I am using the second largest. I started with the largest, approx 1" longer, a 5 micron glass media, but saw very high pressures, especially when cold (gauge pegged).

Hyd oil, being a single weight prob. thin out more than, say, 15W-40. The oil seems to 'loosen up' a lot in just a few minutes. I did not test the by-pass setting before removing it but feel sure it would have been opening. I think this pump may be moving more volume than the deuce oil pump, even at these moderate rpm(s). Looking in the tank is like watching a toilet flush.Temp and media seem to be a big factors for pressure differential. JimK

 

[Flatlander]

RE: pump

Okay, I found a stash of about 100 WWII aircraft hydraulic pumps...

Bendix Aviation Corp
Eclipse-Pioneer Division
LBS/Sq in. 600
Gal/min 3.5
Volts 24

I think these were used in the P40 aircraft. Would this be enough pump to prelubricate? Looks like all you have to do is find the fittings for the lines...

I'll take a picture of one and post it here.

 

[houdel]

RE: pump

3.5 gpm should be enough to get 10-20 psi easily, it should work quite well. Got a price on those hydraulic power units?