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GL-1 Gear Oil Alternative

Chevyman_15237

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I'm going to go with what the MANUFACTURER tells you to use... Sorta like when the manufacturer of a light fixture tells you to put a 40 watt bulb in a 40 watt light fixture. If your house burns down because the thing catches fire from a 100 watt bulb.... you're S.O.L.:razz:
 

Clay James

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Reno/NV
I'm going to go with what the MANUFACTURER tells you to use... Sorta like when the manufacturer of a light fixture tells you to put a 40 watt bulb in a 40 watt light fixture. If your house burns down because the thing catches fire from a 100 watt bulb.... you're S.O.L.:razz:
That's why I put in SAE 50 motor oil:mrgreen:
 

paulfarber

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I'm going to go with what the MANUFACTURER tells you to use... Sorta like when the manufacturer of a light fixture tells you to put a 40 watt bulb in a 40 watt light fixture. If your house burns down because the thing catches fire from a 100 watt bulb.... you're S.O.L.:razz:
This is a great example of not really having an idea of what the TMs mean.

The MANUFACTURER is the one who told the Army if the oil is acceptable.

You are grabbing at random scraps of paper trying to come up with a coherent reason for not following the TM. Picking up a civvy manual and saying thats how it should be defies any logic a sound mind could reason.

The plain old truth is (and I'm sorry some random dude on the internet has to burst your world view on GO) that your M35 has had Gl-5 in it since the early 1990's.

Show me ONE manufacturers recall, Technical Order, lawsuit, grumbling etc that shows that the manufacturer has a problem with the Army's GO in their gearboxes. Hint: YOU AIN'T GONNA FIND IT CAUSE IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. The manufacturer would take the Army to court to recover any additional costs due to the use of a substandard LO.

NEVER HAPPENED. The Manufacturer is perfectly happy with GL-5.

Oh, and please post a scan of this document so we can see the dates on it.
 

pacebm

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Brewton, Alabama
I have been watching this thread with much interest and I can tell there are a lot experts and opinions. So, to add a little more confusion, I asked my Royal Purple distributor about his thoughts. Well he had to make a few calls but this is what he came up with (all Royal Purple products of course):

Engine Oil - SAE 15W-40
Transmission - Max gear 75W-90
Transfer Case - Synchromax
Axles - Max Gear 75W-90

To make it clear, I do not endorse this and I am not running RP products in the Deuce. I am not an oil expert, we use a lot of RP products at our chemical plant. I just wanted to offer another opinion from someone who knows oils.
 

paulfarber

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You called a salesman and asked him what products he recommends? Seriously?

Hows this:

LO 9-2320-209-12-1

30 APRIL 1983

LO MIL-L-2105

Already established that the current MIL-L-2105E spec is GL-5 oil.

The original MIL-L-2105 spec was superceeded in 1987 to the D specification, which was, DRUM ROLL PLEASE! A GL-5 oil.

Sorry to yell this:

PLEASE SHOW ME A TM IN THE LAST 18 YEARS THAT SAYS USE GL-1

Come all you random scraps of paper guys... where is this GL-1 stuff coming from???? Honestly, I cannot find a TM that says GL-1. I cannot find a manufacturers manual that that says DON'T USE a GL-5 oil.

At this point I can only hope that you guys are just pushing my buttons. :?
 

pacebm

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Location
Brewton, Alabama
You called a salesman and asked him what products he recommends? Seriously?
I knew he would specify Royal Purple products but I was more interested in the SAE ratings, specifications, etc. I don't want to push anyone's buttons; just trying to provide some more info. I agree with you on the GL5 point, but I do feel there are better products out there and I think everyone is interested in what they are. I am no oil expert, maybe you are, and I respect that but I would love to hear more opinions on this subject. We change oil types/brands regularly on 20 to 30 year old equipment that runs 24/7 because we see a product that will increase reliability and time between failures. Over the last 15 years we have increased the time between shutdowns from 1 to 4 years. I believe there are better products out there for the M35 and we just have to figure out what they are.
 
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paulfarber

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I hope it didn't seem like I was attacking anyone, its just that after 5 pages of posts I cannot even get to the source of where this GL-1 oil came from.

If it is in a TM, its over 20 years old. I think if GL-5 based LO was going to rot a driveline it would do it by now.

If you feel the need to use GL-1, then enjoy the hunt for it, but you're going to pass gallons of perfectly good GL-5 that you could be using sitting right on the shelf.
 

stumps

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Maryland
Hi Paul,

This whole thread is nothing but slips of paper really... both sides of the argument. Just to add some spice, let me add some anecdotes that I lived through... not the active participant, but his helper.

To set the stage: My dad had an IH truck that had a Borg Warner 3 speed overdrive transmission. There were two versions of the same exact transmission, one with the OD, and one without. The spec for the 3spd OD trans was SAE 90 straight mineral oil, and the spec for the 3spd trans was SAE 90 straight mineral oil, but hypoid was also acceptable. To add some further complexity, the truck had a posi-traction rear that needed SAE 90 hypoid gear oil with a friction modifier. To add a time frame, the truck was a 1962, and my dad eventually put nearly 400K miles on it.

My dad was thrifty. And quite busy. The SAE 90 straight mineral oil IH specified for the OD transmission was at that time unavailable from anyone other than the dealer (and very expensive), but SAE 90 hypoid gear oil was everywhere. The friction modifier was available only at the dealer and also very expensive.

At that point in time, you could buy a half dozen different brands of SAE 90 hypoid gear oil, from your local auto parts store. All said they superseded the SAE 90 straight mineral oil, and many said they superseded the straight mineral oil, and also provided the friction modifier needed by limited slip differentials. My dad needed (wanted ?) to service the truck, so he bought a 5 gallon can of the best stuff he could find, which happened to be Valvoline, and drained and refilled his transmission, OD unit, and rear differential. Bear in mind that this truck had about 50K miles on it, so it was essentially brand new.

Immediately after the change, he noticed that the limited slip differential behaved a little differently. It tended to go "chunk, chunk, chunk" when he went down the highway on exit ramps, and other places where the truck was making long slow sweeping turns. To fix that he went to the dealer and bought the friction modifier (that Valvoline said wasn't necessary) and that fixed the problem... for a while.

One year after the change, the overdrive unit froze up solid.

My dad took apart the overdrive unit, and found that all of the little needle bearings in the unit were ground to dust. He went to the dealer, and the parts guy said, "You put hypoid in it, didn't you?"

My dad bought the new planetary section parts for the OD unit, and a 5 gallon can of SAE90 straight mineral oil... and some more friction modifier, as the posi unit was starting to go "chunk, chunk, chunk" again.

My dad put the OD transmission back together, and once again, it was working great.

My dad was an engineer with a very mechanical bend, and it bothered him to be using an oil that had nothing in it, in this modern age. He was talking with one of the other engineers in the office, and it turned out that this guy was one of the Navy's experts in EP additives, and, in fact, had started a company that marketed little vials of Molybdenum Disulphide... about the best high pressure lubricant, and all around slippery stuff that man has ever devised... for use in cars and trucks. This guy knew that moly was the fountain-of-youth for mechanical things... Unfortunately, the market never caught the buzz, and my dad's friend's company had failed... and he had literally tons of left over stock. He gave my dad a couple of quart mayonnaise jars full of moly powder to play with (I still have them).

The "Oh oh!" alert should be going off in your brain about now.

My dad reasoned that the only time a properly specified needle bearing ever fails is due to the friction between the adjacent needle faces. And indeed, that is true. So knowing that moly was god's gift to reducing friction in sliding steel surfaces, he added a vial of the moly to the transmission oil.

You have never heard such a stream of "gosh darn-its" , "flern durn its", and "dab nab its", in your life!

The OD needle bearings may have been protected from wear for life, but the synchronizers couldn't get enough grip to do their job. That nice modern transmission became a crash box, that needed double clutching. All from adding a simple, yellow metal safe, EP additive to the oil!

He had to take the transmission apart, and scrub the moly off of everything, which is virtually impossible. I don't remember anymore if he had to buy new synchronizers, or if he got them clean enough through scrubbing.

After doing all of that, the transmission went another 300K miles, using 90W straight mineral oil from IH. After about 300K, it failed again, and was replaced with an identical unit from a '51 Nash Rambler... which then failed on my brother's watch, and was replaced by a 4 speed.

What are the lessons that come from this anecdote?

1) the one size fits all attitude is rampant in the oil industry, and always has been.
2) their one size fits all oils work most of the time, but not in every application.
3) the manufacturer usually knows what is best for their equipment.
4) engineering is a rough business, full of minor and major setbacks.

GL-5 is a compromise. It is designed to be the one oil you use in all transmissions, differentials, transfer cases, winches, etc... It has been designed to be good enough so that it doesn't appreciably wear the industry standard test transmissions, and bearings, but not so good that it ruins the synchronizer clutches, and posi-traction rear ends. It is designed to work with ball bearings, timpkin roller bearings, and other frictionless bearings, and also with sliding "bearings", like gear teeth, and uber sliding "bearings" like worm gear teeth, and hypoid gear teeth.

It does everything pretty well, but somethings it does better, and somethings worse.

Using GL-5 in everything is an exercise in mediocrity. Greatness is available for the same price, but requires a bit more room on your shelves.

-Chuck
 

electraman

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Location
Charlotte, nc
I have been reading this tread... I like what you have to say, So you are happy with the SAE 50? I just my duce to shist properly and dont want to left on the side of the road...

Thanks!
 

boblester40

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Location
winsford uk
Interesting , in the UK i dont think we can even get GL1 only GL4 and GL5 i had heard all the previous guff about gl5 being unsafe for yellow metals but now most the suppliers have GL4 / GL5 combined lubes , there was a simular rant which went on in the stationary engine groups re old vs modern oils much the same ,

in the end you cant deny the fact though that any moderm lubricant of the same grade today will vastly out perform a lubricant of 40 years ago i bet you could put the cheapest stuff you could find in there and it would still be better than an oil of the 50`s , why is GL1 hard to find ? because it was superseded by a better oil simple !
 

paulfarber

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Gordon, PA
I said this two or three pages ago.

Since the mid 80's the US ARMY HAS BEEN DUMPING GL-5 oil into M35s and the manufacturer has no problem with it.

Sure its a much heavier duty oil than it *needs* but one lube is easier to make than 2.

*ORIGINALLY* GL-5 oil did have an issue with yellow metal. But there was a very specific set of things that had to happen: water, heat, and sulfur/phosphorus. Even then the mixture was inert till 250+F was reached. How do you lower temps? Thinner oils. 80/90W will no get that hot.

I thought I had settled this :)
 

mikey

Active member
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39
28
Location
Lake Como, PA
What does it say? Post the page.
pg 183

Do Not Install API GL-5 Oils
CAUTION
Meritor does not approve petroleum-based and multiviscosity
oil. Do not install API GL-5 oils, which contain
extreme-pressure (EP) additives. These additives can form
sludge at normal operating temperatures. Damage to
components can result. Use only SAE Grade 50W synthetic oil
in the transfer case.
 

73m819

Rock = older than dirt , GA. MAFIA , Dirty
Steel Soldiers Supporter
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I found in the DEUCE LO, it calls for 90wt GEAR OIL for normal use, for rears, trans, xcase, ALL other gear boxes, found NO mention of a type number gl1 or gl5
 

mikey

Active member
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Location
Lake Como, PA
ive read this entire thread like 3 times (at least) over the last few months and ive been more confused after reading it than before i found it...

im going with sae 50 synthetic...

question? can you use sae 50 in the transfer cases as well? front and rear?

my guess is that life couldnt be that simple...

thx

mikey
 

tco3129

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Flat Top W.V.
Hey guy's. I was wondering. Does anyone know what kind of oil I should use in my tranny, Xfer case and axle housings??? Maybe used peanut oil???:doh:aua:twisted:
 

davey8943

Member
334
2
18
Location
Columbus IN
The document that Chevyman posts clearly states to NOT USE GL-5 ..... Numerous times!

I can get GL-1 at the local NAPA for about the same price. Sounds like I am going to use the good old GL-1!!

Dave
 

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