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Steel Soldiers now has a few new forums, read more about it at: New Munitions Forums!
Need Some Help with Rear Axle Seal "blow out"
- Thread starter Commander5993
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I saw that pin in some of the photos I looked up by part #. I figured it must have been for alignment with the other pieces.
Thanks for the detailed explanation, I'll be sure to assemble it that way once I get to the front end.
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Thought I would post an update. Since the driver side drum was smooth, somehow even after all those parts and springs were floating around in there. I thought I wouldn't have to get the drums turned, even though I would rather do so anytime replacing shoes. However when I removed the passengers side drum a few days ago, it was grooved pretty good as were the shoes, although I couldn't see any reason as to why other than a lot of brake dust. At that point I knew I really needed to get them turned.
Only problem was where... there was only one place, which is a popular local tire and mechanic shop that I have had some work done at before, that I thought *might* still have a brake lathe. I called them this morning and they had a lathe, but it broke back sometime ago and they said it was too expensive to repair for what little work they had for it. Said they would never get the money back for what it cost to repair. BUT they told me of a parts store, of all places, that wasn't too far away that might still be able to do it. And it was the Only Place that they knew who used to turn drums and rotors, that still might have a working lathe anywhere in this area.
So I called them and they could turn drums but wasn't sure if they could turn these or not, said they would have to see them. So I took them this morning, and after trying multiple different "adapters" that would hold the drum in place they came up with a setup that would work. So I left them there, and I went back and picked them up this evening. Only cost $15 which surprised me, as I was expecting anywhere from $35 to $50 these days. My Dad said he used to charge about $7 or $8 to turn a set of drums back 40 years ago. But they look good now, just need a final cleaning and ready to put the new bearings and races in.
Also last week I was questioning if I had mixed brake fluid. So after your all posts and info, I was able to "test" my brake fluid that I pulled out of the master cylinder and mixed it with water. Looks like it is just good ol' DOT 5, as it separates from water (looks better than in the photo). I did a test with some DOT 3 just to see what it would look like, and it completely mixed with the water and just made a milky looking solution. Also the rubber seal/cap in the master cylinder lid is in perfect condition. Its not only not swollen or deformed, but rather it is firmly fitted into the metal top. Looks like new actually. The one I was thinking about previously that didn't want to go back in its place, was actually the rubber lid seal in the master cylinder on my Dads suv.
With that said, the fluid in the truck is pretty yellow. Which apparently confirms what some people have said about purple DOT 5 can turn yellow over time which is weird... but I have topped it off before and the only DOT 5 I have is purple. Anyway I will be doing a full flush of the system with new fluid. This is the DOT 5 I have, the label came off back sometime ago so I just used a marker.
Lastly, I have not heard back from Hillbilly Wizard about the parking brake lever yet. It looks like he is the only one who I might be able to get it from, as I can not find one anywhere. Even the parts places I went to today, no one had nor knew anywhere to get it from. One guy did mention about maybe getting it from salvage, but due to the trucks age and because this was the 13 x 3.5 drum setup, he thought it was pretty unlikely to find it. So if I can't get one, I'll have to see if I can make a pin for this one. Worst yet, I misplaced the original damaged pin. Can not remember what I did with it....
All I got for now. Self adjuster parts are supposed to be in wednesday. So planning on getting the new races and bearings installed in the drums tomorrow. They are giving it to rain all day, so a good time to work in the barn.
Only problem was where... there was only one place, which is a popular local tire and mechanic shop that I have had some work done at before, that I thought *might* still have a brake lathe. I called them this morning and they had a lathe, but it broke back sometime ago and they said it was too expensive to repair for what little work they had for it. Said they would never get the money back for what it cost to repair. BUT they told me of a parts store, of all places, that wasn't too far away that might still be able to do it. And it was the Only Place that they knew who used to turn drums and rotors, that still might have a working lathe anywhere in this area.
So I called them and they could turn drums but wasn't sure if they could turn these or not, said they would have to see them. So I took them this morning, and after trying multiple different "adapters" that would hold the drum in place they came up with a setup that would work. So I left them there, and I went back and picked them up this evening. Only cost $15 which surprised me, as I was expecting anywhere from $35 to $50 these days. My Dad said he used to charge about $7 or $8 to turn a set of drums back 40 years ago. But they look good now, just need a final cleaning and ready to put the new bearings and races in.
Also last week I was questioning if I had mixed brake fluid. So after your all posts and info, I was able to "test" my brake fluid that I pulled out of the master cylinder and mixed it with water. Looks like it is just good ol' DOT 5, as it separates from water (looks better than in the photo). I did a test with some DOT 3 just to see what it would look like, and it completely mixed with the water and just made a milky looking solution. Also the rubber seal/cap in the master cylinder lid is in perfect condition. Its not only not swollen or deformed, but rather it is firmly fitted into the metal top. Looks like new actually. The one I was thinking about previously that didn't want to go back in its place, was actually the rubber lid seal in the master cylinder on my Dads suv.
With that said, the fluid in the truck is pretty yellow. Which apparently confirms what some people have said about purple DOT 5 can turn yellow over time which is weird... but I have topped it off before and the only DOT 5 I have is purple. Anyway I will be doing a full flush of the system with new fluid. This is the DOT 5 I have, the label came off back sometime ago so I just used a marker.
Lastly, I have not heard back from Hillbilly Wizard about the parking brake lever yet. It looks like he is the only one who I might be able to get it from, as I can not find one anywhere. Even the parts places I went to today, no one had nor knew anywhere to get it from. One guy did mention about maybe getting it from salvage, but due to the trucks age and because this was the 13 x 3.5 drum setup, he thought it was pretty unlikely to find it. So if I can't get one, I'll have to see if I can make a pin for this one. Worst yet, I misplaced the original damaged pin. Can not remember what I did with it....
All I got for now. Self adjuster parts are supposed to be in wednesday. So planning on getting the new races and bearings installed in the drums tomorrow. They are giving it to rain all day, so a good time to work in the barn.
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Question: What is the consensus on installing the rear wheel bearings? To fill with grease before install? Or leave Dry?
TM states to grease front wheel bearings. But doesn't say anything concerning the rear wheel bearings. I have read that some people say to grease them, but other people say to leave them dry, then after reassembly drive slow to get the oil to coat them first.
EDIT: Never mind, finally found it in the TM. Pack with grease. I never heard of not doing so before installing wheel bearings. But some people were claiming this was the "wrong way" for the rear wheel bearings. Made me question it.
TM states to grease front wheel bearings. But doesn't say anything concerning the rear wheel bearings. I have read that some people say to grease them, but other people say to leave them dry, then after reassembly drive slow to get the oil to coat them first.
EDIT: Never mind, finally found it in the TM. Pack with grease. I never heard of not doing so before installing wheel bearings. But some people were claiming this was the "wrong way" for the rear wheel bearings. Made me question it.
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well, did a final cleaning on the drums and got the new bearings and seals installed. Started working on how to make a pin for the parking brake lever. never heard back from hillbilly wizard, so making a pin is my only option at this point.
Just went to the mailbox and got the socket I had ordered for the spindle nuts. And they don't fit. The spacing is correct, but the square pins are just a fraction too wide for the round holes in the nut. Probably just crappy machining. Might look at it tomorrow and see if filing down the corners on the socket would allow it to fit. If not, just going to send it back. Should have just went down to the local autoparts store and bought one, probably would have cost $30 or so. But at least would have the socket in hand, if they had one.
Just went to the mailbox and got the socket I had ordered for the spindle nuts. And they don't fit. The spacing is correct, but the square pins are just a fraction too wide for the round holes in the nut. Probably just crappy machining. Might look at it tomorrow and see if filing down the corners on the socket would allow it to fit. If not, just going to send it back. Should have just went down to the local autoparts store and bought one, probably would have cost $30 or so. But at least would have the socket in hand, if they had one.
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going to try the socket you ordered, would have ordered this to begin with by had already ordered this other one by the time i saw your pose. Looks exactly like this one, same size and etc. hope it works.
I checked and my socket works. The only thing different is my hub nut has the rounded pockets while your pic shows them square. But I’m any case the square socket ridges still fit the round hole lol.
But I’d say you probably don’t need the hub socket though for the 14 bolt, I ended up setting it just based on turning and taping a screwdriver against the hub nut slot. I think the TM says 50ftlb and then back off slightly and insert the key way, but that seems way too tight to me for a Tapered roller bearing and I couldn’t even turn the hub. So I back them off a lot more so that it’s just tight enough I cant force any slop In the hub from working it back and forth.
There shouldn't be preload. Tapered roller bearings need 0.001-0.003" of clearance. This applies to a very wide range of applications. I would think the 50ftlbs is to seat the bearing and each locking position is 0.003" apart. So, as long as you've backed it off and stopped by the next locking position your clearance is going to be 0-3 thousandths.
I'll have to double check this math on my front as it's currently open.
I'll have to double check this math on my front as it's currently open.
That would make sense so I’m not sure why I had to back it off so much. Like I said even going a few locking positions looser I still couldn’t spin the hub. So I ended up doing it my old fashioned way. I’m not worried as I’ve done it this way already on this truck as well as to other ff axles and have been fine. But it is odd the procedure still had too much preload for me.
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Yeah, I was impressed with the numbers - where the holes in the locking nut measure out to .003
I have always run the inside nut down tight. Almost too tight to tun the wheel. Wiggling, pushing and turning the hub with the ultimate goal of seating the seal and/or making sure that the bearings turn uniformly. Then loosen spin the hub again and tighten again to make sure nothing "moved". Then I turn back about a third of a turn... Then apply the lock.
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Ok, I have done the math. These numbers are slightly approximate and remember, this is the Dana 60 as that is what I have apart.
I measured 12.3 threads per inch on the nut. That means each turn is 1/12.3 inches of movement.
I counted 16 holes in the locking washer. It is reversible so it has 32 positions. That means each position is 1/32 of a turn.
Thus, 1/12.3/32 equals 0.0025" of clearance per lock location.
Maybe next time do the 50ftlbs to set the races, back off, then tighten to stop, then loosen to first pin alignment.
I measured 12.3 threads per inch on the nut. That means each turn is 1/12.3 inches of movement.
I counted 16 holes in the locking washer. It is reversible so it has 32 positions. That means each position is 1/32 of a turn.
Thus, 1/12.3/32 equals 0.0025" of clearance per lock location.
Maybe next time do the 50ftlbs to set the races, back off, then tighten to stop, then loosen to first pin alignment.
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Yeah the axle nut on this truck has round holes too. This socket had square pins, and the were spaced correctly. But would not fit into the nut. I could have took a dremel and ground the corners off of each pin, and it would have probably worked. If this other socket doesn't fit, thats what I'll do.
And to everyone else exchanging data about the axle nut and how tight its supposed to be. Thanks
![[thumbzup]](https://www.steelsoldiers.com/images/smilies/icon_smile_thumzup.gif "Thumbs Up [thumbzup]"){kind=icon}
The TM does say to tighten to 50lbs while turning the drum to seat the bearings, and then back it off to no preload if I remember right. I know when I went to remove it, after taking out the locking key, the nut spun off by hand.
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Here is an update to my progress.... I'm slow but I'll get it done eventually.
Yesterday I made a new pin for the parking brake lever. Used a 3/8" Grade 5 bolt, not the threaded part but the smooth shaft portion. I cut the head off, then clamped my dremel tool off the side of my workbench. Using a thin cutting disc, I held the bolt and cut a shallow groove all the way around. I got my kit of snap rings (lock rings?) and continued to deepen the groove slowly until I was able to use a small set of channel locks and snap the ring into place. Took it to the wire brush on my bench grinder to smooth it and remove any burs.
After getting the groove cut, I cut off the threaded portion of the bolt and dressed it. Then took a marker to "paint it" and used my dial calipers to scribe a line all the way around the bolt to mark the correct length and cut it with my angle grinder. Used the dremel tool to clean it up and finish it.
Looked good, so I set it up in my vice so that just enough of the top was sticking out of the parking brake lever (for it to end up at correct length) and tac welded it. Tapped it with a hammer a bit to straighten it and finished welding it.
I'll just leave out that I welded it in backwards the first time, had to grind the weld off turn the brake lever over and reweld it....
In the end it worked. Maybe this will help someone else who has the same issue. This part is not available Anywhere. Unless you need the passengers side... found a brand new GM one on ebay... but none for the drivers side...
Today the self adjuster kits arrived. And between the TM's, some youtube videos, and looking at the passengers side brakes. I was slowly able to figure out how everything was supposed to go together. Took three hands to get the spring pulled back on the parking brake cable and get the parking brake lever on the cable before letting the spring go. That spring is certainly tough, and no my parking brake wasn't on.
One thing I ran into was that on the new brake shoes, one shoe was longer and thicker than the other. Actually my Dad had come over to see what I was doing and he is the one that noticed it. The shoes that were on the truck were exactly the same in length and thickness. So wasn't sure if I had the wrong shoes or what.
Did some research online and found the consensus of several websites and some videos, that *if* a set of brake shoes had one shoe that was longer and/or thicker than the other, then the the long/thick shoe went on the "rear side" of the wheel. As it takes more of the braking force and is also the parking brake, and other opinions. In any case, this made sense to me so thats how I installed them.
So the drivers side is done, all new parts from the wheel cylinder all the way up, with the exception of the repaired parking brake lever and cable. Brake line fitting turned out of the wheel cylinder just fine, and the lines are good and solid so I'm leaving them. But I am going to replace the rear brake hose. (will also replace front hoses when I get to the front end).
I will say, it has been several years since I installed brake shoes ( the last one's I did was on an 90's model GM Suburban)... but the way the springs and etc are setup on this truck, its the hardest one's I've ever had to do. Had to use two bar clamps to hold the first shoe in place while getting the initial pins and springs on there, and still could have used three hands...
Also the diagram in the TMs aren't great in showing how it's assembled, and are missing a couple parts completely. Even though I had photos of this hub, because of all the thick oil and the parts that were missing/fell out of the bottom when I removed the drum, the photos didn't help much. I'm glad I waited on taking the passengers side apart.
Spent way to much time just to get one side done today. Good thing I don't own a mechanic shop, I'd go out of business.
Anyway, the passengers side should go much faster now that I know where all the parts and spring go. Should be able to get that done tomorrow unless something comes up. Then just be waiting on the axle nut socket.
hum... have to fix that wheel cylinder pin...
Yesterday I made a new pin for the parking brake lever. Used a 3/8" Grade 5 bolt, not the threaded part but the smooth shaft portion. I cut the head off, then clamped my dremel tool off the side of my workbench. Using a thin cutting disc, I held the bolt and cut a shallow groove all the way around. I got my kit of snap rings (lock rings?) and continued to deepen the groove slowly until I was able to use a small set of channel locks and snap the ring into place. Took it to the wire brush on my bench grinder to smooth it and remove any burs.
After getting the groove cut, I cut off the threaded portion of the bolt and dressed it. Then took a marker to "paint it" and used my dial calipers to scribe a line all the way around the bolt to mark the correct length and cut it with my angle grinder. Used the dremel tool to clean it up and finish it.
Looked good, so I set it up in my vice so that just enough of the top was sticking out of the parking brake lever (for it to end up at correct length) and tac welded it. Tapped it with a hammer a bit to straighten it and finished welding it.
I'll just leave out that I welded it in backwards the first time, had to grind the weld off turn the brake lever over and reweld it....
In the end it worked. Maybe this will help someone else who has the same issue. This part is not available Anywhere. Unless you need the passengers side... found a brand new GM one on ebay... but none for the drivers side...
Today the self adjuster kits arrived. And between the TM's, some youtube videos, and looking at the passengers side brakes. I was slowly able to figure out how everything was supposed to go together. Took three hands to get the spring pulled back on the parking brake cable and get the parking brake lever on the cable before letting the spring go. That spring is certainly tough, and no my parking brake wasn't on.
One thing I ran into was that on the new brake shoes, one shoe was longer and thicker than the other. Actually my Dad had come over to see what I was doing and he is the one that noticed it. The shoes that were on the truck were exactly the same in length and thickness. So wasn't sure if I had the wrong shoes or what.
Did some research online and found the consensus of several websites and some videos, that *if* a set of brake shoes had one shoe that was longer and/or thicker than the other, then the the long/thick shoe went on the "rear side" of the wheel. As it takes more of the braking force and is also the parking brake, and other opinions. In any case, this made sense to me so thats how I installed them.
So the drivers side is done, all new parts from the wheel cylinder all the way up, with the exception of the repaired parking brake lever and cable. Brake line fitting turned out of the wheel cylinder just fine, and the lines are good and solid so I'm leaving them. But I am going to replace the rear brake hose. (will also replace front hoses when I get to the front end).
I will say, it has been several years since I installed brake shoes ( the last one's I did was on an 90's model GM Suburban)... but the way the springs and etc are setup on this truck, its the hardest one's I've ever had to do. Had to use two bar clamps to hold the first shoe in place while getting the initial pins and springs on there, and still could have used three hands...
Also the diagram in the TMs aren't great in showing how it's assembled, and are missing a couple parts completely. Even though I had photos of this hub, because of all the thick oil and the parts that were missing/fell out of the bottom when I removed the drum, the photos didn't help much. I'm glad I waited on taking the passengers side apart.
Spent way to much time just to get one side done today. Good thing I don't own a mechanic shop, I'd go out of business.
Anyway, the passengers side should go much faster now that I know where all the parts and spring go. Should be able to get that done tomorrow unless something comes up. Then just be waiting on the axle nut socket.
hum... have to fix that wheel cylinder pin...
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nyoffroad
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Looks good! Glad you caught that pin before totally reassembly.
Have you ever noticed that drum brakes stop so much better going forward than in reverse? That's because of the wedge effect you get from the longer shoe (primary) contacting the drum and rotating slightly and wedging itself against the brake anchor pin at the top. If you want or need anymore useless tidbits of information, I'll be happy to chime in!
Have you ever noticed that drum brakes stop so much better going forward than in reverse? That's because of the wedge effect you get from the longer shoe (primary) contacting the drum and rotating slightly and wedging itself against the brake anchor pin at the top. If you want or need anymore useless tidbits of information, I'll be happy to chime in!
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One of the things I read said something to that effect.
And sure! Share all the useless tidbits you want
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Need input. I slowly tightened up the axle nut while spinning the hub. Below is where the locknut ended up at 50lbs. TM states to loosen enough to install key. Should I only back it to install it in the nearest slot, which is the one thats its already half aligned with. Or back i off to the next slot that I circled in red?
When I backed it off to the next slot circled in red and started to turn the hub, it makes a "pop" one time. Assuming that is the hub/bearings moving to their final position after torquing. I have redone the procedure a couple times now, and the lock nut always come to rest at approximately the same position relative to the closest slot.
Going from what you guys said previously, I'm thinking that loosening the lock nut to align the next slot circled in red would be correct. What say you?
When I backed it off to the next slot circled in red and started to turn the hub, it makes a "pop" one time. Assuming that is the hub/bearings moving to their final position after torquing. I have redone the procedure a couple times now, and the lock nut always come to rest at approximately the same position relative to the closest slot.
Going from what you guys said previously, I'm thinking that loosening the lock nut to align the next slot circled in red would be correct. What say you?
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Me personally, about a quarter or a half turn back. You need room for expansion as the bearings heat up. Back it off, then spin the drum. It should rotate freely but if you grab the left and right of the drum and try to wiggle the drum left and right. There should be no "slop".
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Should finish up the rear axles tomorrow or monday. So...
I'm now looking up parts to go through the front axle.
From what I am seeing in the TMs, the front and rear wheel bearings are the same??
Outer Bearings / Race: LM104949 / LM104911
Inner Bearings / Race: 387AS / 382A
Looking at replacing bearings, wheel seals, either rebuild or replace calipers, pads and hardware, brake hoses, & the u-joint at the axle
I had the tie-rod ends replaced about a year ago, as I was driving to town one day and suddenly it felt "loose" in the front end and started pulling toward the right. Stopped at local shop and after they jacked it up and looking, they said the tie rods needed replaced. And they checked the wheel for "wobble" and said the wheel bearings were "ok" but that they did have some wear. Which is why I'm going to replace them now.
With that said, anyone have suggestions on other maintenance/common wear parts I should be looking at??
I'm now looking up parts to go through the front axle.
From what I am seeing in the TMs, the front and rear wheel bearings are the same??
Outer Bearings / Race: LM104949 / LM104911
Inner Bearings / Race: 387AS / 382A
Looking at replacing bearings, wheel seals, either rebuild or replace calipers, pads and hardware, brake hoses, & the u-joint at the axle
I had the tie-rod ends replaced about a year ago, as I was driving to town one day and suddenly it felt "loose" in the front end and started pulling toward the right. Stopped at local shop and after they jacked it up and looking, they said the tie rods needed replaced. And they checked the wheel for "wobble" and said the wheel bearings were "ok" but that they did have some wear. Which is why I'm going to replace them now.
With that said, anyone have suggestions on other maintenance/common wear parts I should be looking at??
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nyoffroad
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Sounds like you're replacing just about all of it, I never replace wheel bearings 'just because'. I'll take them out and clean and inspect them and well over half the time they go right back in. They have to actually show signs of wear before I change them.
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I already know the front wheel bearings have some wear. If you jack up the truck you can feel a little bit of slop in the wheel.