repower with a screming detroit or possible big cam cummins?

[res0wc18]

so what five speed trannys came behind the deutz diesels in the iveco's? Were all the ivecos powered by the deutz diesels? What engine model and power ratings did the ivecos have?

 

[res0wc18]

also how do the rear engined school bus setups work? I have found some really nice ones with turbo 3208 cat's and allison mtb643's, but could i use this or a similar rear engined setup in the duece? How does the transmission setup work with it being A rear drive and rear engine?

What about mating the 3208's to the 3053? What about mating the dt466 to the 3053?


But the problem with that is most of the allisons do not have overdrive and with my bobbed duece the extra length of the allison with no overdrive would most likely be hard to justify


the 24v cummins in the bus line is not the same crack prone 53 block in the dodge truck is it? Being in the bus do they have stand alone computer systems etc?

 

[mudguppy]

also how do the rear engined school bus setups work? I have found some really nice ones with turbo 3208 cat's and allison mtb643's, but could i use this or a similar rear engined setup in the duece? How does the transmission setup work with it being A rear drive and rear engine? ...

usually utilize either a reverser box or a flopped differential.

... What about mating the 3208's to the 3053? ...

'boom' goes the transmission in the first bind...

... What about mating the dt466 to the 3053? ...

tick-tock, tick-tock.....................'boom'.

ha ha, i don't really know. i'm sure the transmission would survive behind both engines if driven real conservatively or if they were quite de-rated. or, it'll explode immediately, i don't know.

i just know that the clutch let-out torque of most dt466's is going to be about 200ft-lbs over what the spicer is rated at. and, can you even get a #3 engine adapter on a '466?

... But the problem with that is most of the allisons do not have overdrive and with my bobbed duece the extra length of the allison with no overdrive would most likely be hard to justify

very true. i don't see a way out of it in my (similar to your) situation. that's why i'm going 6bta/nv4500 - w/ this combo, i should have a bit of room to spare.

i have no other suggestions...

 

[nhdiesel]

very true. i don't see a way out of it in my (similar to your) situation. that's why i'm going 6bta/nv4500 - w/ this combo, i should have a bit of room to spare.

i have no other suggestions...

You are knocking the 3053a behind a 3208, which doesn't make a whole lot more torque than a HO 5.9 Cummins, (maybe less, depending on the setup) but you will put a trans rated for barely over half the GVW of the 3053a behind a healthy Cummins? Why not adapt the Cummins to the Spicer? You still end up with 5-speed, OD, and almost exactly the same crappy 2nd to 3rd gear jump. Plus the NV4500 has the 5th gear issue, with no real cure, just band-aids. Even the low-mileage one behind the 4bt in my Durango is making some noise in 5th, if I had a place to work on it I'd pull it and try one of the band-aid solutions on it.

You are talking about putting in a transmission thats rated for 14,500 lbs. total in a truck that weighs almost that empty. If you must go with a light duty trans, at least hunt down an NV5600. The initial cost will pay for itself once you have to start investing in NV4500 repairs. I wish I had gone that route in my Durango, although the extra 100 lbs. would have really hurt.

Jim

 

[mudguppy]

you are mistaken in several areas:

You are knocking the 3053a behind a 3208, which doesn't make a whole lot more torque than a HO 5.9 Cummins, (maybe less, depending on the setup) ...

my 12v cummins is already over 600ft-lbs and will be much closer to 800 when swapped in.

... but you will put a trans rated for barely over half the GVW of the 3053a behind a healthy Cummins? ...

the nv4500 is rated for 460ft-lbs at 16,000 GVW, 21,000 GCVWR. while that may not sound like much, my rig will fall quite well within these specs. besides, this trans lives behind 1000hp sled pulling diesels with only a input shaft upgrade. it'll hold what i've got just fine. and it'll handle a deuce just fine also.

... Why not adapt the Cummins to the Spicer? ...

the spicer behind my MF isn't happy now and it shifts like chit. what do you think it'll do when i double the input torque?

... You still end up with 5-speed, OD, and almost exactly the same crappy 2nd to 3rd gear jump. ...

nah, my spicer is the 3053 w/ the 1.70 3rd gear - it isn't nearly as bad of a jump as the -A model w/ the 1.89 3rd gear. and the 4500 has basically identical ratios. besides, my 12v will turn 4k rpm. i don't drive like that from shift to shift, but it's nice to know it will happily wind up to cover gaps between limited gear selection. it makes a big difference to be able to run above 2900+ w/ full fueling vs starting to defuel around 2500 like my MF does.... if i can even get to 2500.

trust me, i've been searching for more gears. if i can find an FSO-6406A, it's going in...

... Plus the NV4500 has the 5th gear issue, with no real cure, just band-aids. ...

nope - real cures, not band-aids. getting a new main shaft that is fully splined to alleviate any 5th gear issues. also getting a short tailhousing from them. nothing new, they've been in business fixing 5th gears for years.

... Even the low-mileage one behind the 4bt in my Durango is making some noise in 5th, if I had a place to work on it I'd pull it and try one of the band-aid solutions on it. ...

get a new main shaft - they aren't nearly as expensive as you'd think.

... You are talking about putting in a transmission thats rated for 14,500 lbs. total in a truck that weighs almost that empty. ...

the rating is 16k. my truck weighs right at about 11k. a deuce weighs around 13.5k. besides, it's been proven to hold under much worse conditions.

... If you must go with a light duty trans, at least hunt down an NV5600. ...

nope, 5600 is a horrible choice. they have had an enormous amount of issues. plus they are rare, extremely expensive, and there are no repair parts for them. do some 'net searching - google 'nv5600 problems'. this one is a particularly good read.

... The initial cost will pay for itself once you have to start investing in NV4500 repairs. ...

what repairs?

 

[res0wc18]

so the 3208/ dt 466 will literally eat the 3053? Even in a bobbed deuce. I need to take some measurements this weekend to see if the motors with the allisons will even fit. Looks like the dt466 would be a better choice.

Is the 24v cummins in the bus line the same crack prone 53 block in the dodge truck is it? Being in the bus do they have stand alone computer systems etc?

will a cummins L10 fit with a 10spd? From the pictures they dont look all that long?

 

[mudguppy]

so the 3208/ dt 466 will literally eat the 3053? ...

i don't know. there will be some here that say no. i'm just looking at the numbers. 350ft-lbs...

... Is the 24v cummins in the bus line the same crack prone 53 block in the dodge truck is it? Being in the bus do they have stand alone computer systems etc?

maybe? i actually haven't heard of the 53 blocks in commercial apps, but i guess they'd be there also.

 

[nhdiesel]

I'm a believer that the 3053 will handle the 3208 as well as it would handle a 5.9 Cummins, and there are plenty of those swapped into Deuces. The question is, why would you want to swap in an engine that is larger, weighs 900 lbs. more and stock for stock, barely puts out more power? Search the net- the 3208 is thought to be a turd because of its low power for the size/weight. You can GET more power, but again- for less money you can get as much power from a 5.9.

There are lots of people who have swapped up from lighter transmissions to the 3053 series. Go do a search on Pirate 4x4. I was going to use a 3053a in my '96 Ram because it would have been cheaper and stronger than an NV4500. Most 3053s that are worn out in Deuces are because in the military anyone could drive the Deuce, whether they even knew how to drive a standard. Lots of abuse! I've driven several that shift as smoothly as my NV4500 in my Durango, including driving one home 500 miles.

Jim

 

[res0wc18]

yeah the cat is way to large for what i want i just figured out.

Are the cummins L10 and the c8.3(big brother to the 5.9) the same motor? I dont think they are, but some one is trying to tell me that.

 

[mudguppy]

... and stock for stock, barely puts out more power? ...

you sure about that? looks like the lowest power rating is 160hp / 365ft-lbs and highest is 250hp / 675ft-lbs. looks like the average rating is about 200hp / 500+ ft-lbs. compared to the stock multi-fuel, how is that "barely" above 130hp / 305 ft-lbs??? (source)

while, i'm not a big fan of 3208s by any means, i can at least spot 'blind-loyalty' where the MF is given quite a bit more credit than it has earned.

i don't advise putting a 3208 in; heck, i'd even rather see a POS detroit 8.2 in there before a 3208. but at least represent them fairly.

... There are lots of people who have swapped up from lighter transmissions to the 3053 series. Go do a search on Pirate 4x4. I was going to use a 3053a in my '96 Ram because it would have been cheaper and stronger than an NV4500. ...

really? because i can't find a single thread noting the 3053 family behind anything bigger than a 4bt or SBC. and there sure as chit aren't any threads discussing it's strength and surmising that it is stronger than an nv4500.

so, out of the 13 threads that come up when 'spicer 3053' is put in the search block, please show me what has lead you to this conclusion. honestly, i would like to read it.

hey, i've eaten crow before, but i like to make sure it's well prepared. so, please, if you will - i prefer my crow well-done...

 

[mudguppy]

... Are the cummins L10 and the c8.3(big brother to the 5.9) the same motor? ....

no - different critters.

 

[res0wc18]

hmm, thats what i thought. What does 7000 hrs of use equate to in miles driven?

 

[res0wc18]

so think about this. A brownie spicer 5831 behind the transfer case on a bobbed deuce. info here

would the gearing help? say for instance using low range in the transfer case going up through 5th then putting it in od in the brownie, then shifting to direct as your pulling the transfer case up and putting the tranny into fourth etc?

Would it be possible to hook up some air powered cyclinders to throw the brownie between gears and mount a three position switch on the tranny shifter like the modern 18spds have? any done something similar to this?

 

[nhdiesel]

EDIT: For some reason there is 1 period different on your link, HERE is the link with working pics.

Yes you can do that. You can also use these to split gears. I believe the one shown is the same one I was going to use in my Dodge project, which I'm considering seeing if it can be installed in a Deuce. My version is 3 speed- OD, direct, and underdrive.

The biggest issue is trying to make room for one in a Deuce. There isn't a whole lot of room to work with, even though the trucks seem large. Ideally, the brownie would be between the trans and t-case, but that just isn't going to happen. Maybe if the t-case were pushed back a bit, but even then it would be snug. No matter what, the rear driveshaft would get a lot shorter, and with the movement of the rear suspension, you need to keep all the length you can.

I have wondered about using an air shifter, or electric solenoids. The issue would be getting them to shift without crunching gears. Maybe it would work though.

Jim

 

[res0wc18]

it would be on my bobbed deuce. It would have to be after the transfer case between the transfer and rear axle.

If i could hookup air powered cyclinders to shift it with no more sticks coming in the cab, and the ability to shift be moving your thumb, you could shift pretty darn good.

Im not certain when in high range on the transfer, and in under on the brownie what the rpms and mph ranges would be but the calulations i get when in low range on transfer in fifth gear and over on the brownie i can do 37mph at 2500 rpms's with some pretty serious torque reduction.

ideally a spicer 5831a or 5831c would be best because it only has a slight under drive, the shifting would be much better.

Anyone know where to get a 5831A or 5831C?

 

[nhdiesel]

Keep watch on ebay, they come up from time to time. Also watch older trucks, like from the 60's and maybe 70's. International used them a lot in their aprox. 2-ton trucks.

Hey, whats wrong with more shifters??? It gives you something to do when you are bored...lol. Just think about the gearing options! 30 forward gears from what I can figure:

[Trans] [t-case] [brownie]

1-1-1
2-1-1
3-1-1
4-1-1
5-1-1
1-2-1
2-2-1
3-2-1
4-2-1
5-2-1
1-1-2
2-1-2
3-1-2
4-1-2
5-1-2
1-2-2
2-2-2
3-2-2
4-2-2
5-2-2
1-1-3
2-1-3
3-1-3
4-1-3
5-1-3
1-2-3
2-2-3
3-2-3
4-2-3
5-2-3

You're gonna need a bigger shift pattern plate...

Jim

 

[res0wc18]

insane amount of options, but i want to make the shifting faster and jumps between smaller thats why im looking into the air shifted option.

 

[Alex400]

insane amount of options, but i want to make the shifting faster and jumps between smaller thats why im looking into the air shifted option.

just get a 10 or a 13 speed and mount it right to the motor in front of the transfer case, so then you can have 13 speeds in low and high range, and in 4 wheel drive and two wheel drive. by putting the brownie after the transfer case, you would not be able to use the gears in it when you are in 4 wheel drive.

 

[res0wc18]

true, i guess i could move the transfer case back then, but mounting a tranny to the multi might be another thing. The length of most 10 spds? i dont know how long they are.

 

[Alex400]

Download the sales literature on this trans and in there you can find all of the models, the different gear sets, dimensions and weights.

FR Series