Winch problem on a fire dept M54A2 5ton

gringeltaube

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The bad news is the drum moved about a 1/8 of a revolution. Then it stopped moving. The input shaft felt like it just went into neutral.
Most likely the dog clutch was just barely engaged and then slipped out, after just a little movement.
I was able to put the shift lever back into "OUT" easy. I can't move it now.
Continue turning the input shaft and keep trying (to re-engage the clutch)
 

doghead

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As for the engagement lever, I often slowly pull out on my cable a bit while holding light hand pressure on the lever until it engages. Remember, the engagement dogs only engage every 180 degrees of drum rotation. Since your cable is bound, you will need to rotate the input shaft several turns while holding the engagement lever over to engage, until it does engage. Then you can hand rotate the input shaft to turn the drum in the direction needed to unwind your cable.

Also, understand that the lever on the winch simply engages and disengages the cable drum from the input drive. Don’t let the words “in” and “out” cast onto the lever confuse you. They refer to engagement, not drum rotation direction.

The PTO is reversible, that is how you run cable out and in. Always a two man operation.

As for the drum lock pin. Good chance it is sheared off. Pull it(remove it) out and see. It’s there to simply keep the drum from freespooling when you disengage the engagement lever. Most of the time they don’t work well or at all. The drum hole gets damaged from incorrect use.
 
Last edited:

Mullaney

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Update.

I made a shaft adapter. I went shopping in scrap box. Found a cut off hyd cylinder rod end that worked good. I had to bore out the center to fit over the input shaft. Then drill a hole for the shear pin. Then welded on a big 1 5/16 bolt head. The bolt shaft was all buggered up. nice

Put on on the shaft. Got all braced up to pull hard on the 3/4 ratchet and almost nocked my teeth out as there was very little effort to move it. That is good news.

The bad news is the drum moved about a 1/8 of a revolution. Then it stopped moving. The input shaft felt like it just went into neutral. It is snug but very little resistance. Doesn't make any ugly noises. Doesn't make any noise or feel like its clicking. Or does not feel like if it was against broken teeth.

I was able to put the shift lever back into "OUT" easy. I can't move it now.

The pin that is on the left side to release the drum to hand spool is out. SEE PICTURE It is not on the detent. Its just not going in. We were trying everything to get it to release before. I am sure someone pulled that out. If that is out, then turning the input shaft won't do anything.

I never thought to bring my come-along. I could have hooked that to my trailer hitch and wrapped the other end around the drum and hooked it to the chain to give it a tug. I am thinking that now that the tension is released, if I can unwind the drum with my come-along to get the hook untangled, reset the unwind pin and be home free.

That adapter was definitely a FIRST CLASS idea! I would say that piece goes into the tool box with hopes of never having to use it again. And to serve as a reminder of that day in December 2020 when things didn't go exactly according to plan. (I have several such pieces myself!)

Reading through your posts, I am inclined to believe you need the come-along to get the chain out of a bind - and just maybe you will be "free" enough to unspool the cable. Doesn't take much to bind up the drum when something is wedged that shouldn't be.
 

Celticlady

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Most likely the dog clutch was just barely engaged and then slipped out, after just a little movement.

Continue turning the input shaft and keep trying (to re-engage the clutch)
Its supposed to rain all day today and then snow and ice storm friday.
Probably won't get back to it till Sunday. Its will be clear and 50. I will let all of you know.
 

Recovry4x4

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If the dog clutch did become disengaged, I would give it a whirl with any number of pry tools to get the chain out. Maybe a spud bar or a halligan tool or the like. The person you should listen to closest is not me though. Gringeltaube is absolute best resource.
 

Celticlady

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If the dog clutch did become disengaged, I would give it a whirl with any number of pry tools to get the chain out. Maybe a spud bar or a halligan tool or the like. The person you should listen to closest is not me though. Gringeltaube is absolute best resource.
The hook is still caught around the steel horizontal brace across the back of the winch. Its in a impossible location to get to with any kind of prybar.
Several people have tried.

I got enough rotation so the cable is relaxed but not enough to get the hook unhooked. With everything now relaxed I think I can run the my come-along cable in there to the big chain link at the hook. Give a tug. If I can rotate the drum enough for the dog to catch again then I can go back to using the input shaft to move the drum. Unspool the drum and get this all untangled.

Its just not enough room in the garage to do all that with the door down. The weather went to hell over night. Will be till Saturday. If we need the tanker its still in service. Just no winch. If we really need a winch I'll take my LMTV that has a factory winch. Its more maneuverable and not as heavy.
 

Mullaney

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The hook is still caught around the steel horizontal brace across the back of the winch. Its in a impossible location to get to with any kind of prybar.
Several people have tried.

I got enough rotation so the cable is relaxed but not enough to get the hook unhooked. With everything now relaxed I think I can run the my come-along cable in there to the big chain link at the hook. Give a tug. If I can rotate the drum enough for the dog to catch again then I can go back to using the input shaft to move the drum. Unspool the drum and get this all untangled.

Its just not enough room in the garage to do all that with the door down. The weather went to hell over night. Will be till Saturday. If we need the tanker its still in service. Just no winch. If we really need a winch I'll take my LMTV that has a factory winch. Its more maneuverable and not as heavy.
You just can't beat having a backup plan in your business! So neat that you have a winch truck available if you need it. Maybe we need to get you some magnets for the doors so your truck looks "official" if you have to go somewhere in a hurry...
 

gringeltaube

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If I can rotate the drum enough for the dog to catch again then I can go back to using the input shaft to move the drum.
No, the other way around! You have to keep spinning the input until the dog clutch can catch again. Then you'll have a 29:1 gear ratio working in your favor, in order to turn that drum. (Should be fairly easy, with your super-adapter and a ratchet wrench...;))

Do just like @doghead explained, in post#42.
 

Celticlady

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No, the other way around! You have to keep spinning the input until the dog clutch can catch again. Then you'll have a 29:1 gear ratio working in your favor, in order to turn that drum. (Should be fairly easy, with your super-adapter and a ratchet wrench...;))

Do just like @doghead explained, in post#42.
Thank you for this info.

Ok at 29:1 that is a lot of cranking with my ratchet at 1/2 turns. I cranked 5 or 6 -1/2 turns so that wasn't near enough. Now that its broke loose there is not much resistance. If I put a impact on it will that damage it? I also have a 1/2 battery drill. I could put it on low and use 3/8-1/2-3/4 adapters to drive it.
 

Celticlady

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As for the engagement lever, I often slowly pull out on my cable a bit while holding light hand pressure on the lever until it engages. Remember, the engagement dogs only engage every 180 degrees of drum rotation. Since your cable is bound, you will need to rotate the input shaft several turns while holding the engagement lever over to engage, until it does engage. Then you can hand rotate the input shaft to turn the drum in the direction needed to unwind your cable.

Also, understand that the lever on the winch simply engages and disengages the cable drum from the input drive. Don’t let the words “in” and “out” cast onto the lever confuse you. They refer to engagement, not drum rotation direction.

The PTO is reversible, that is how you run cable out and in. Always a two man operation.

As for the drum lock pin. Good chance it is sheared off. Pull it(remove it) out and see. It’s there to simply keep the drum from freespooling when you disengage the engagement lever. Most of the time they don’t work well or at all. The drum hole gets damaged from incorrect use.
Really good info guys

That DID have me confused..

See picture of winch control placard.

I have a single lever for the PTO. Its really sloppy. This I believe is what really got me in trouble to begin with and I didn't have second person to watch.

Still working on finding that manual.
 

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Guyfang

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Recovery wrote this:
Edit, hope this works. http://www.steelsoldiers.com/upload/5Ton/TM9-2320-211-10.pdf

I wrote this:
Front winch operation starts on TM page 91, paragraph 2-15.

Open the link. It will download to your computer. Start reading at the above listed page.

We used a 1/2 drive impact gun. Turned down the air. Its not about forcing the drum to turn. Its about turning the drum. Repeated impact, not beating it to death. I like your adapter. Ours was an over sized socket. We drilled a hole through it and slipped it onto the shaft. Stuck a pin in and then hooked up the gun.
 

Celticlady

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Recovery wrote this:
Edit, hope this works. http://www.steelsoldiers.com/upload/5Ton/TM9-2320-211-10.pdf

I wrote this:
Front winch operation starts on TM page 91, paragraph 2-15.

Open the link. It will download to your computer. Start reading at the above listed page.

We used a 1/2 drive impact gun. Turned down the air. Its not about forcing the drum to turn. Its about turning the drum. Repeated impact, not beating it to death. I like your adapter. Ours was an over sized socket. We drilled a hole through it and slipped it onto the shaft. Stuck a pin in and then hooked up the gun.

Thanks

got it now

Printing...
 

Celticlady

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Reference is made to post 1 and 34: The described publications are available in paper or in the publications section on this site. Do your experts know how to adjust the brakes on a M54 ? Where the 45 or so grease points are on it ? Neglect these at your peril. How to check to see if there is lubricant in the gear box for your winch ? I suspect the forest service is not too big on operator and organizational level maintenance until something breaks. Parts are expensive. Oil and grease or cheap. Be guided accordingly. Much military equipment has been destroyed by untrained personnel with unauthorized tools and parts trying to repair it without reading the reading.

Thanks.

Our "experts" ha ha ha

First name : Bubba
Last name: Hammer

I am a just retired airline mechanic. We have our hammer tec there too, but not so much. ( Hey Conan, that bolt you just beat the F.. out of cost $4000. ) I try not to force anything. Air plane stuff is REALLY expensive and does not like to be beat on. My last job was over hauling 777 starters. List price $53,000. Yep the correct number of zeros. If I had to beat on it, it was because some pilot named Conan didn't pay attention to duty time. Just kept hitting that start button. "Hey it doesn't start on the 2 nd try you have wait 1 hr to cool off the starter " They turn a $53,000 starter into charcoal. I have to beat it part to find any salvageable parts... maybe

Anyway back to your very good point. Because I am not working 12 hrs day. Empty nest etc, I can do things like work on the fire trucks I didn't have time for before. I have been having a conversation with the chief about this topic. Thanks to your motivation:giggle:
 

Celticlady

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Winch covers were locally fabricated items. I was told their use was discouraged in later years as they retained moisture which accelerated corrosion of the cable.

Pipe wrench worked for me to gently rock the imput shaft to see if mechanism was free and I got the and the end of the drive shaft went back on easily. Obviously if you need a 6' cheater pipe to turn the shaft something is wrong and then you will bugger up the shaft.

On the subject of snatch blocks , the ratio of the size sheave to the cable is 12:1 so 1/2" cable requires at least a 6" sheave. Smaller is bad. Bigger will work.

More excellent info.

Any one need a brand new snatch block with 4.5 in pulley?
 

Celticlady

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Guys quit telling her to use a pipe wrench on the winch input shaft! Nothing worse than having that precision machined surface all buggered up, then the yoke won't go on smooth ever again!!!

I didn't like that idea either. Its right up there with using "bor hogs" (channel locks) on a cannon plug.... eww

So glad ya'll gave me so many good ideas.
 

Celticlady

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To all,

Sorry if I didn't respond earlier to your post. I am still getting used to the format here. I respond and it goes to the very bottom. Whether that is 100 pages later. I am used to a response attached to what I responded to. So a lot of good info I didn't see as there was 2 pages. It got lost in my shuffle. With the bad weather I have time to sort through this.

Thanks again :giggle:
 

Celticlady

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were about in Arkansas are you?
Ha Ha I about fell out my chair laughing at your idiot quip under your question. Right up there with the Peter Principle.

Well here in the USA we don't have natural selection. My parents were missionaries in the jungles of Peru. SA It is really hard to communicate with people that don't wear any clothes and NOBODY speaks their language but them, that you don't through your kid, who was born a idiot, in the river. Now 60 years later I am wondering who was right.....

Japton
 
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