Winch problem on a fire dept M54A2 5ton

162tcat

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Washington
Our volunteer fire dept has a 1990 Kaiser M54A2 converted to a tanker.

Using the winch has been a issue. Mostly because we don't know what we are doing. Finally got the PTO to engage. Then had difficulty getting the lever in front to work. We had the cable pulled out. Then once we got the action to retract couldn't shut it off. By the time we got everything shut down the winch had wrapped the chain and hook up and the hook had snagged the horizontal brace across the back. Now everything is all jambed up. Can't get it to unwind or wind.

Looks like we are going to have to remove the winch assembly to get it all untangled. Which I am sure will cause other issues.

HELP!
You didn’t have someone in the cab? All you have to do is push the clutch in and it stops.... a PTO winch is no joke but once you know what each component does, it’s simple to operate.


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Robo McDuff

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Some questions:


CelticLady, did you already figure out which year the truck is from? There is thread by Carnac that can help you narrow it down using the serial number.

Do you have the Garwood 20,000 lbs winch?

Fasttruck, what winch are you showing here, never saw this clutch winch.
 

fasttruck

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Reference is made to post 55: 1500 gallons of water weights 12,450 pounds. As I assume you are desiring to run the truck on unimproved roads, is it overloaded ? Pump, hose, tools plus weight of water ? Most tanks, if they are baffled at all, are only front to back not side to side. NFPA reports the biggest cause of LLOD involving tankers are roll overs. Be guided accordingly.

Post 56: Army TM on rigging ( I don't know the TM #) gives ratio of cable to sheave as 12:1. Such a block would haver a sheave wide enough to accommodate the cable and enough strength in the side plates and hook to carry to load such a cable would bring to bear. Check NSNs in appendices of -10 manual for block authorized for a 5 ton truck.

Reference post 62: pics of winches with exposed dog clutches are derived form WW2 CCKWs and M37 Dodges. Note grease points of capstans and sliding clutches. Idea is to illustrate that these things cannot be forced into engagement by applying a cheater pipe to the clutch operating handle. See previous post about untrained personnel using unauthorized tools. Move capstan to align opposing clutch dogs. With a M 54 where the parts are concealed, this is a touchy feely operation.
 

fasttruck

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Further reference to post 55: If the truck is not fully loaded, you have a "slop load" which, even with baffles, will surge front to back if the vehicle starts or stops rapidly, and this effect will make it even more unstable than it otherwise would be. Check with anybody who has ever hauled liquid chocolate such as used to make Hersey's candy bars, in a milk trailer. Chocolate is heavier than milk so the tank cannot be loaded to the top. Chocolate also surges slower than milk so you have to hold onto the brake tight if you stop as when the load comes forward it is possible for the truck to move 6 feet propelled by the kinetic energy in the load hitting the front of the tank.
 

Celticlady

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Reference is made to post 55: 1500 gallons of water weights 12,450 pounds. As I assume you are desiring to run the truck on unimproved roads, is it overloaded ? Pump, hose, tools plus weight of water ? Most tanks, if they are baffled at all, are only front to back not side to side. NFPA reports the biggest cause of LLOD involving tankers are roll overs. Be guided accordingly.

Post 56: Army TM on rigging ( I don't know the TM #) gives ratio of cable to sheave as 12:1. Such a block would haver a sheave wide enough to accommodate the cable and enough strength in the side plates and hook to carry to load such a cable would bring to bear. Check NSNs in appendices of -10 manual for block authorized for a 5 ton truck.

Reference post 62: pics of winches with exposed dog clutches are derived form WW2 CCKWs and M37 Dodges. Note grease points of capstans and sliding clutches. Idea is to illustrate that these things cannot be forced into engagement by applying a cheater pipe to the clutch operating handle. See previous post about untrained personnel using unauthorized tools. Move capstan to align opposing clutch dogs. With a M 54 where the parts are concealed, this is a touchy feely operation.
I was told it is 1500. That may be a approximent number. It is the tank from the chasis of our previous tanker. There are no pumps. it carries 1 fold out dump tank and one hydrant hose. Its not baffled. Yes, we are ALL aware of that danger. And have been trained accordingly.

Just as a comparison, our pumper tanker fire truck is 1500 gal. and is a single axle. Which is pretty standard fire truck equipment.

The cheater bar reference was to the use of a 3/4 ratchet with a cheater bar attached to the drum input shaft by used of an adapter to release the tension in the cable tangle.

As said , that was not required. The input shaft turned easily.

The following discussions was on getting the clutch dogs to reengage. There was mostly agreement with some. "No .. do this first, then that" You have addressed that.

I have been given several excellent video links and manual references.

The snatch block we have is for 1/2 cable. How ever its has a 4.5 in pulley. As it was rated for 1/2 cable the assumtion was made that it complied with being rated for 1/2 cable in all regards. If 1/2 cable is supposed to have a 6 in pulley then something is amiss. It was bought from a US rigging company.

The lesson has been learned.

This afternoon there will be two or more people to address the issue. It will not take long to see if all the info is valid.

I will give a update.
 

Celticlady

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The lesson has been learned.

And now its time to put that puppy to bed.
Winch on Kaiser is fixed.

A winch manual is in the glove box.

It actually wasn't that difficult when using the instructions and some help from people who have experience.

The come along did the job. Once the hook and chain were clear I could run it out by hand. And engage the dog. As someone said. there can't be any tension on the drum to engage or disengage the front lever.

I tried using my impact to wind it back in using the shaft adapter for the drum input shaft. For about 2 seconds. It wasn't doing anything except beating on it. I put my 1/2 drill in low range. Did fine job.

Thanks everyone
 

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Celticlady

Member
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Arkansas
Some questions:


CelticLady, did you already figure out which year the truck is from? There is thread by Carnac that can help you narrow it down using the serial number.

Do you have the Garwood 20,000 lbs winch?

Fasttruck, what winch are you showing here, never saw this clutch winch.
Found the paper work from the forest dept. 1971

Yes the Garwood 20,000
 

Recovry4x4

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I'm glad you got it fixed and glad we here at Steel Soldiers were helpful. So often folks come here and don't want to hear what is said. Maybe pride or we sound condescending. I'm glad you came with an open mind and wanting to learn. We all win in the end. Thanks for joining up.
 

topo

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Having a front winch is very useful and using a helper is fine they can watch that the cable spools up across the drum but when done winching I trade place's so I can make sure the cable spools up right then I tell them to push the clutch to stop other wise when the hook and chain get close to the winch they have no idea what is bad till it happens .When the chain is almost out of view is a good time to switch places . Also having the radiator inches from a winch with no guard between them adding a guard is worth it .
 

Robo McDuff

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Glad its done.

Thanks for the very concise answers.

My winch (on an M51A2 dump truck), if I see it correct, has only three positions: out-neutral-in
Mine is also frozen, reparing it is next on the list now I have the dump system working.
 

G744

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For G744 series trucks:

Long story short, one can't stop the winch with the in/out lever out front, only by the driver using the clutch.

When the winch is turning there is so much pressure on the gears you can't move the lever.

Winching is best a two person job. One in the truck, one on the ground watching.

DDG
 

frank8003

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Truck self recovery winch has always been a two human job.
We all glad You watch and listen and learn.

Here is the secret nobody publicized.
With the truck in all available AWD You all freakin stuck, and the winch IS recovering the truck with snatch block or NOT (highly recommended) and truck in Low Low and all walking forward the gears/wheels/winch take-up winch intake reel all go the optimum speed rotation all at once. Within reason, two human job.

Probably has been used to go up mountains heavily loaded.
Like how heavy is a Deuce loaded, overloaded with ammo, 3 ton plus..
How much does cases of 45ACP weigh in a Deuce loaded to top. Maybe that is why the 5 tons exist..?
They got winch too.
 
Last edited:

Recovry4x4

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Truck self recovery winch has always been a two human job.
We all glad You watch and listen and learn.

Here is the secret nobody publicized.
With the truck in all available AWD You all freakin stuck, and the winch IS recovering the truck with snatch block or NOT (highly recommended) and truck in Low Low and all walking forward the gears/wheels/winch take-up winch intake reel all go the optimum speed rotation all at once. Within reason, two human job.

Probably has been used to go up mountains heavily loaded.
Like how heavy is a Deuce loaded, overloaded with ammo, 3 ton plus..
How much does cases of 45ACP weigh in a Deuce loaded to top. Maybe that is why the 5 tons exist..?
They got winch too.
Excellent fore thought engineering. One of the great things about both being mechanical, you can calculate these things!
 
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