CUCV 1986 M1008 - In a Real Pickle - Bad Heads - Need Advice

[cucvrus]

I have to agree with that suggestion. I would do something. An intake manifold is much cheaper then tearing into that engine again. I would make it work. The right stuff is a great sealer. All that intake does is centralize an air intake position that allows filtration of incoming air. It has no water or any pressure in it. Modify and fix what you have. It will last for years to come. I would do it at this point. New holes some sealer and flat washers will go a long way. Not the way to start. But at this point a way to end the torment and still have a functioning engine. Do it. Good Luck.

 

[Commander5993]

Yea WOW I don't know what to tell you. I never had that happen. Will the selling company get you the correct head. I always dislike buying parts sight unseen. But that should fall back on them. Is it a face to face deal or internet? You will be out the bolts and gaskets not to mention the time. Sad to hear. Good Luck getting back up and running again.

Internet
Yeah, I don't like buying auto parts without seeing them in hand, but no place to buy stuff like this from around here.
I emailed the company last night, haven't heard anything back yet. I know its the weekend, but I also emailed them yesterday morning about sending the cores back to them and got a reply in less than 5 min...

Yeah, I've already been figuring what I have to rebuy... even dreamed about it last night.......

I looked back. I may have missed it. What happened to the original heads? Were the deemed junk at some point?

Yeah, I was going to have the original heads re-machined, but after they magnafluxed them, they found they were riddled with cracks.
Thats why I bought brand new heads...

 

[Commander5993]

Could you have a machine shop re-drill the manifold bolts on 1 side?

I have to agree with that suggestion. I would do something. An intake manifold is much cheaper then tearing into that engine again. I would make it work. The right stuff is a great sealer. All that intake does is centralize an air intake position that allows filtration of incoming air. It has no water or any pressure in it. Modify and fix what you have. It will last for years to come. I would do it at this point. New holes some sealer and flat washers will go a long way. Not the way to start. But at this point a way to end the torment and still have a functioning engine. Do it. Good Luck.

This is why I like SS, aside from the vast amount knowledge that is gathered here, you guys are also a good sounding board, and in situations like this, come up with much better solutions than I would. I was already planning on starting to take it back apart today. I'm going to hold off on that for the moment.

I dont even understand why they would make the "90 degree" (that is it looks like the bolt is going in as 90 degrees to the floor?), as it doesn't seem the intake would seal down as tight since it is not pulling in the "right" direction... but thats just me.

Anyway, I'm not even sure if there is a machine shop anywhere around here. We're kind of out in the sticks, springfield mo (the closest "big city") is 100+ miles away.
But there might be a shop in another town not too far from here, I'll have to look into it.

Do you think the original holes would need filled/welded in, then redrill the 90 degree holes?

-------------
EDIT:
Would these heads be the same otherwise? As in pre combustion chambers, valves, etc? I mean they looked the same, thats why I never noticed this when they were sitting on the engine.
Didn't have the work bench space to sit both of these and the old heads all side by side. So I just compared one old head to one new head, assuming that the new heads were at least a matching pair...... Should have known better than to assume anything, just got to big of hurry I guess.

 

[Tinstar]

As much as that totally sucks, I personally would wait for the correct head from them and then redo it.
That way you know it's 100% correct and not rigged together.
If you were selling it soon, sure, get it running and get rid of it.
But since your keeping it, do it right.

I know it's costly and very time and labor intensive, but if you take a shortcut now, it will always bug you.

 

[Recovry4x4]

The 90° bolt angle was necessary for the center mount turbo. It wasn't a perfecf design but a necessary design to put diesels in vans.

I also agree that it just directs air into the engine. I would seriously ponder the feasibility if modding the intake just to get it on the road.

 

[Commander5993]

The 90° bolt angle was necessary for the center mount turbo. It wasn't a perfecf design but a necessary design to put diesels in vans.

Ok, now I understand, it was to fit the engine with turbo into a different vehicle. That makes more sense, as there wasn't any reason for it that I could see in the trucks.

I also agree that it just directs air into the engine. I would seriously ponder the feasibility if modding the intake just to get it on the road.

I haven't ruled out modding the intake so long as the rest of the head is the same, as in valves, pre combustion chambers etc.
I found a phone number for what is supposed to be machine shop in a town about 30 miles from here. I may call them tomorrow, if they do this kind of work, I may take it to them tuesday and see what they say.

 

[fitz]

Google "SB chevy intake manifold bushings" (maybe someone more computer savvy than me can post the link to Summit Racing, I tried & failed).
These bushings are used on sb chevys to solve a problem similar to the one you are having. The 1986 & earlier sb intake manifolds would not bolt up to the 87-95 sb chevy heads because the angle on 4 of the intake bolts had changed.
These bushings were a real problem solver. They let guys run an 87-95 motor without buying a new intake manifold.
I'm sure you could make something like this to get your truck back on the road.

 

[Commander5993]

Google "SB chevy intake manifold bushings" (maybe someone more computer savvy than me can post the link to Summit Racing, I tried & failed).
These bushings are used on sb chevys to solve a problem similar to the one you are having. The 1986 & earlier sb intake manifolds would not bolt up to the 87-95 sb chevy heads because the angle on 4 of the intake bolts had changed.
These bushings were a real problem solver. They let guys run an 87-95 motor without buying a new intake manifold.
I'm sure you could make something like this to get your truck back on the road.

Hummm... interesting. Never heard of those before, but not sure how it (or similar) could work for this intake. I'll have to think about it.

I think you're talking about these:

Link to summit: http://bit.ly/Intake-Manifold-Bushings

 

[Commander5993]

I painted two intake studs orange, so they would show up better in some photos. I'm going to send these photos to the company that I bought the heads from.
I know most people here on SS already know what is being discussed, but I thought I would also post these here for the few who don't.

This shows both heads. Didn't get the best angle for this photo apparently, as the stud in the driver side head is actually pointing directly up.





This shows the passenger side close up, this is what the bolt angle should have been in both heads...




This is the drivers side head close up, this is the problem...





I also took some photos of my intake, and the bolt holes.





The "short" bolt holes I could see being re-drilled.





The long bolts on the other hand, I'm not so sure...

 

[ken]

Barrman did this to a intake on a engine he was working on. I believe it was his suburban. He posted some pics of it . Mabye he can chime in here????

 

[ken]

Try this post: You will have to scroll quite far to see the intake.
This thread:

https://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...e-Build-Thread

Post #88 shows the manifold on an engine with just the holes drilled.

Post #170 has the finished manifold.

I don't really have any other pictures of it all bolted on. But, you should get the idea from the pictures linked to above.

Tim

 

[Commander5993]

Barrman did this to a intake on a engine he was working on. I believe it was his suburban. He posted some pics of it . Mabye he can chime in here????

Try this post: You will have to scroll quite far to see the intake.
This thread:

https://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...e-Build-Thread

Post #88 shows the manifold on an engine with just the holes drilled.

Post #170 has the finished manifold.

I don't really have any other pictures of it all bolted on. But, you should get the idea from the pictures linked to above.

Tim

THANK YOU TIM!!!
This is a great Help!

I assume he must have drilled from the bottom (gasket side) of the manifold, using the holes as where to align the bit, then just drilled straight down? Or did he use a jig to hold it or something. I think I'm going send him a PM

-----------------------------------
EDIT:

A 29/64 drill bit going straight down on a CUCV 6.2 intake sitting on its top makes the job not take very long.

So yes, he turned it upside down, and drilled from the bottom. Awesome... there might be hope yet

 

[cucvrus]

Do you think the original holes would need filled/welded in, then redrill the 90 degree holes?

This a helpful hint at best.
NO I would not worry about welding the holes and redrilling. I would get them drilled that the studs fit. I would ask for $$$ assistance from the seller. I doubt they will offer anything but the correct head. And that puts you back to square 1. Of course doing it 100% correct is the right way. BUT. You are working at it for a month. Do you want to start over? If so have at it. I would work with what you have and save the $$$ for something more important. With one side correct and new gaskets get a few bolt/studs in the other side and call it a day. Apply some sealer at all points. It will be fine. I guess I have to ask. Is the coolant manifold effected. Does it have angled bolt holes. I doubt it. Just asking. Make the decision. But looking at the pictures you done an excellent clean looking job. I support which ever way you want to go. Report back. You could be driving it today with one choice or a month or more with the other. Air Flow only. That is all that travels thru that plenum. Good Luck.

 

[Tinstar]

A lot of time/energy is being used to figure out how to rig this instead of just fixing the problem correctly.

You've spent all this time on it.
Don't take a shortcut now.

If your like most guys I know, there will be a day when you wished you would have done it the right way.

Just an observation and opinion

 

[cucvrus]

Duly Noted. But I think he is concerned with cost and down time. We all know the obvious. I still ask where are the original heads? Would have been much less expensive to have them machined. But we are beyond that now. And no energy is spent thinking things out. That is the easy part. You are at a fork in the road. 1 way is 100% correct. The other way has a few obstacles but you still end up on the same road. I don't see any ill sided effects if you chose the rougher road. But that is me. I try and make things work and do the best job I can with what I have to work with. many times on other peoples shoe string budgets. I keep a lot of vehicles and gadgets up and running on a weekly basis. Could I go out and buy new yes. But many people are not ready or can afford the cost or down time. That was a suggestion only and I know it would still fly the same. If water and oil were involved I would abort and start the tear down immediately. Only air is involved and sealer fixes all air leaks in this situation. Would be nice if the head seller covered the repairs 100%. But extremely doubtful. Good luck either way.

 

[Commander5993]

A lot of time/energy is being used to figure out how to rig this instead of just fixing the problem correctly.

You've spent all this time on it.
Don't take a shortcut now.

If your like most guys I know, there will be a day when you wished you would have done it the right way.

Just an observation and opinion

Good Morning Tinstar

Normally I would be right there with you. I'm just like my father, "...if its worth doing, its worth doing right..." Thats what he taught me as I was growing up, and he's still the same today. Usually if I am going to do a job, whether it is a small thing or something like this, I want to do the best job I am able. I don't like doing something half way, or just slapping things together just to make it "get by". I don't even do that if it is something I know I'm going to sell.

But right now the down time is what is pressing as this was our daily driver, a family member had another truck that was here at our place, so we have been driving that. But they are going to be picking that up soon, so I got to get this done.
And also pulling the head would bring in more costs again. Plus thus far (I know its still somewhat early this morning) but I still have not heard back from this company I bought these heads from...

I hope this works out and nothing happens to that head. But if I am able I think I'm going to try to mod the intake.

Thanks for your Input though

 

[cucvrus]

You have my best thoughts on this subject. That is why I replied. Of course I would do it right. But taking all this into account. I would also get it functional. And without any delay. I feel you will be fine. Do NOT discard the original heads at this point. You may need to have one of the sent to a machine shop and then change it if you ever feel like it. But I think all is well. Drill it . Seal it. Drive on. Improvise adapt and over come. I am confident in my solution. In the event you need an intake they are available. Good Luck Sir.

 

[Commander5993]

Do you think the original holes would need filled/welded in, then redrill the 90 degree holes?
This a helpful hint at best.
NO I would not worry about welding the holes and redrilling. I would get them drilled that the studs fit.

Yeah, after looking at Barrman's photos, that's what I was thinking.

I would ask for $$$ assistance from the seller. I doubt they will offer anything but the correct head. And that puts you back to square 1. Of course doing it 100% correct is the right way. BUT. You are working at it for a month. Do you want to start over? If so have at it. I would work with what you have and save the $$$ for something more important. With one side correct and new gaskets get a few bolt/studs in the other side and call it a day. Apply some sealer at all points. It will be fine.

Yes, its obviously going to need some shorter bolts to replace the longer one's. Barrman mentioned something about wedge washers, I've been looking online, most are only in large quantities, and only 1/8" on the thick end too. I think it will need something much thicker than that for the short bolts. I'll have to come up with something.

I guess I have to ask. Is the coolant manifold effected. Does it have angled bolt holes. I doubt it. Just asking.

I am assuming you are talking about the coolant crossover, going from one head to the other, which is what the upper radiator hose connects to?
Thankfully no, it fits perfectly with no issues. Already got it installed.

Make the decision. But looking at the pictures you done an excellent clean looking job. I support which ever way you want to go. Report back. You could be driving it today with one choice or a month or more with the other. Air Flow only. That is all that travels thru that plenum. Good Luck.

I think I'm going to try to mod the intake since it is only Air as you said.

Duly Noted. But I think he is concerned with cost and down time. We all know the obvious. I still ask where are the original heads? Would have been much less expensive to have them machined.

Nearly 3 months ago, when the head gasket blew and this job first started, we sent the original heads out to be machined, but after they fluxed them, we were told they were quote "...riddled with cracks..." So that is when we started looking at other options. We even thought about selling our deuce, and buying a new engine for this truck, as even most heads were $1000 minimum for the exact same crack prone (as some SS members have said) GM rebuilt heads. There were some new "updated castings" heads, but they were $1000 for each head. So after the truck had been sitting for nearly 2 months, I found these new 6.5L heads for $600 for the pair, we thought this would at least get the truck repaired and back on the road for a long while.

But we are beyond that now. And no energy is spent thinking things out. That is the easy part. You are at a fork in the road. 1 way is 100% correct. The other way has a few obstacles but you still end up on the same road. I don't see any ill sided effects if you chose the rougher road. But that is me. I try and make things work and do the best job I can with what I have to work with. many times on other peoples shoe string budgets. I keep a lot of vehicles and gadgets up and running on a weekly basis. Could I go out and buy new yes. But many people are not ready or can afford the cost or down time. That was a suggestion only and I know it would still fly the same. If water and oil were involved I would abort and start the tear down immediately. Only air is involved and sealer fixes all air leaks in this situation. Would be nice if the head seller covered the repairs 100%. But extremely doubtful. Good luck either way.

Yes I fully agree, if it was anything else other than just the air intake, as much as it would pain me I would not continue, but would tear it back down.
Since it is just air... as I stated before I think I'm going to try to mod the intake. Its not the right way, but its looks to be the "rightest" option that I have at this point.

Yeah, I doubt the seller is going to do anything unless I file a claim against him, as I purchased these through ebay and used paypal to pay, so I do have that option. As of this morning, they have not responded to either one of my emails, the last of which had the photos showing the orange stud bolts in the heads.


Thanks for all the help and input Everyone
Today is Sabbath so I'm won't be working on it today, but I'll be back at it tomorrow morning.
Will update as work progresses.
~Thanks

 

[ken]

Did you get it running?

 

[Commander5993]

working on it just slow I guess
Will try to update tonight