• Steel Soldiers now has a few new forums, read more about it at: New Munitions Forums!

  • Microsoft MSN, Live, Hotmail, Outlook email users may not be receiving emails. We are working to resolve this issue. Please add support@steelsoldiers.com to your trusted contacts.

help please with diesel generator add-on advice

OPCOM

Moderator
Steel Soldiers Supporter
3,657
27
48
Location
Dallas, Texas
Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Genset noise

Oldvw2 said:
OPCOM,
Sorry it took a couple of days to get these pics, let me know if there is anything else that you would like a shot of.
Chad
I'd sure like a detailed shot of the plate or fitting where the the lines go into your lombardini engine.

I am working with the local Lombardini distributor to find a remote oil filter adapter plate part number for the engine. Since the distributors do not always know all the details of all the unusual parts, I am trying to help them for when they call the factory.

So I sent the pictures to the distributor and I really would appreciate some good shots of the adapter on the side of the engine. This will help him find the right parts for my engine which is quite a different model, by clearing up exactly what I am wanting to do.
 

OPCOM

Moderator
Steel Soldiers Supporter
3,657
27
48
Location
Dallas, Texas
enclosing the genset

Got the beast mounted, plumbed, and powered up today. It starts using the truck's "lower" 12V battery and then recharges that battery. After a few stutters due to getting first-time fuel into it from the truck's tank through the new lines, it hums right along. I used 3/8" thick rubber sheet of 1.5" square in 4 places to set the unit on, and then the mounting bolts go through the unit's main frame, through the rubber, and through the mounting plate plate earlier shown. Even the small 3/8" rubbers make a substantial difference in vibration reduction. I would have opted for taller isolators as I was offered some, but I am tight on height and things barely fit. Also got a door made up out of the side panel of an old electronics rack and mounted it with hinges. Although it won't look original to the devout, I think the general public will accept it once it is painted. Pictures soon!!

Now thoughts turn to protecting it from the "three evils" of life under the bed of a deuce:
1. rain
2. water spray from the wheels
3. truck sweat (oil, grease, drool tube, whatever)

Certainly it has to have cooling air and plenty of it. #1 use would be while parked, and the side panel can be opened. But what about while going down the road? Considering the carrying frame built around the set, there is good possibility to attach sheetmetal to the rear-facing end of the set so that it covers the whole backside against whatever wheel spray that the mud flap misses.

Dirt and spray from the front - could be kept out by totally enclosing the front side of the mounting space. The inboard side is what is tricky. The oil has to be checked there and so it can't be closed up, but maybe closing the lower half of it might keep the truck sweat (oily stuff etc) away from the genset.

I have shown some pictures of what I am thinking about, and here is where again my knowledge fails me.

In an RV, the genset runs while it's going down the road. How do they avoid the "three evils"? -well the design of the RV genset is different, and a diesel one will not fit in the M35's space.

I will get the pictures posted soon as possible, showing it from different views.

Any suggestions on configuring it so it could be run while driving yet avoid messing it up with oily or wet air? I have plenty of sheetmetal. (BTW I will either plumb the exhaust or do what is necessary to the outboard hatch for cooling (louvers?) if I intend to drive it with the set running)
 

Attachments

cranetruck

Moderator
Super Moderator
Steel Soldiers Supporter
10,350
77
48
Location
Meadows of Dan, Virginia
Re: enclosing the genset

OPCOM said:
..... It starts using the truck's "lower" 12V battery and then recharges that battery.....
You may end up with unequally charged batteries and upset the condition of them when charged from the truck charging system. Why not have a separate small battery for the genset?

About the enclosure, I'd keep it to a minimum to prevent access problems and moisture/dirt build-up. Why not lengthen the rear mud flap and leave it open? Easy to clean and lots of ventilation.
 

OPCOM

Moderator
Steel Soldiers Supporter
3,657
27
48
Location
Dallas, Texas
RE: Re: enclosing the genset

About the batteries, I want to put a small spin-on external oil filter where the genset battery tray is, and also, why have to deal with yet another battery? I don't think there should be a charging imbalance issue since if the generator charges only the one battery and does not see the other one, it will be charged correctly, and the truck will charge both and the stack will be charged correctly, as the truck should not see the generator as a load. Your point is well taken though and I should check the voltages across the batteries and determine what's happeing. Maybe I wll have to do something about it.

About the enclosure, I guess I am concerned that the open front will let too much road mist and dirt in, and the inboard side will get all oily from my small but PITA oil leak. The spare tire definitely had an oily spot on its innermost portion. - But the tire stuck in under the frame alot, and the genset is completely outside, maybe I do not have to worry too much. I have to enclose the front somewhat anyway to keep rain off the set, I don't think it is designed to be exposed to the direct rain. I did use grade 8 hardware to secure the genset, after my experience with the cheapie bolts.. Here is what it is like now:
 

Attachments

ARMYMAN30YearsPlus

In Memorial
In Memorial
3,585
7
0
Location
Parkville, MD
RE: Re: enclosing the genset

I think I would extend the mudflap with a hinged and pinned section that would be down while traveling an up while running the generator just to keep road dirt and mud out of it and let air in when running
 

OPCOM

Moderator
Steel Soldiers Supporter
3,657
27
48
Location
Dallas, Texas
RE: Re: enclosing the genset

That is a good idea, but how to hinge it? I do not see how to swing it up, there's not much room, can you help me understand? In any case I posted the pictures so far here:
http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/mil/m35/gen/index.html

I have done a little more work since then, and thanks to all the good suggestions and advice, will soon be able to show the finsihed product so to speak.
 

OSO

New member
401
3
0
Location
Arlington,Wa
RE: Re: enclosing the genset

That is a fine project you are working on! Nice posting the pics with the progress, I know it takes longer doing that ,then sometimes you get too busy and forget to take the photos. Best of luck with your install LOOKS GREAT!!! [thumbzup] OSO
 

OPCOM

Moderator
Steel Soldiers Supporter
3,657
27
48
Location
Dallas, Texas
RE: Re: enclosing the genset

I have received no reply about the remote oil filter for the generator. I guess it's time to ping the Lombardini service center again. It won't be as big a deal as I thought to change it. Sitting under the truck, the cover plate is right there and easy to get to.

One thing I have noticed is that after the thing sits for some time, it takes alot of cranking before it will fire off. I suspect the fuel in the hoses etc is being slowly siphoned back down into the truck fuel tank. I hesitate to put a check valve in because the diaphram pump may be hampered by it, and it could upset and lower the pressure to the injector pump (just like on the truck when the in-tank pump is messed up).

I did a little rattle-can painting today to match up the enclosure and also get the ugly spots on the truck. Tried out some zinc cold galvanizing primer to stop rusty areas. Extending the mudflap should do what is needed to prevent spray from the wheels, without enclosing the set so much that it won't breathe. A small bracket could secure the lower end.

Before I do too much more on the enclosure, I need to bring out the 240V/30A and route it into the shelter to the transfer switch and also extend the key switch inside so it can be started and stopped from there. Not that I am lazy..

Added a front side to the enclosure leaving a small gap at the bottom for easy clean out etc. Two small brackets should hold the bottom edge from wiggling too much. Right now it is like a curtain, free at the bottom. The extension at the front is a big aluminum C-channel which is 3/16" thick on the sides and 5/64 on the top. This is tough enough to step on if the need arises. The remaining major thing to do is to add fasteners to the side panel so it will stay closed by itself. Maybe a couple of M35 hood-top brackets and clamps would work well, someone suggested that. My cut is not straight on the trailing edge of the side panel. Maybe a grinder can smooth it out.
 

Attachments

Oldvw2

Member
Steel Soldiers Supporter
169
2
18
Location
Wake Forest, NC USA
RE: Re: enclosing the genset

have received no reply about the remote oil filter for the generator. I guess it's time to ping the Lombardini service center again.
Have you got a local Lombardini dealer you are working with? I could pull that adapter off so that you could use it to match it up to a new one. I'd give it to you but the way this engine mounts I will need it...
Let me know if I can help.
 

Recovry4x4

LLM/Member 785
Super Moderator
Steel Soldiers Supporter
34,012
1,810
113
Location
GA Mountains
RE: Re: enclosing the genset

I like the black spot on the side of the house. Love them multifuels. Oh, the genset project is really taking shape.
 

OPCOM

Moderator
Steel Soldiers Supporter
3,657
27
48
Location
Dallas, Texas
RE: Re: enclosing the genset

A note on this thread today regarding the performance of the genset under a moderate load. As part of the ham radio field day yesterday, it was the first time I put any real hours on the set. Went from 2 to 11 hours on its clock that day. I noticed that after the set got good and warm with a load of 2860W on the 5KW unit, the voltage seemed to sag to 216VAC. That is 108 volts at each of the outlets!! I have written to the manufacturer to inquire as to what conditions the unit would perform outside its spec of 120/240 +/-5% voltage. I am not yet making a condemnation, it could be a power factor issue. If so, I'll have to read up on how to correct that.

IMPORTANT NOTE: this was later determined to be a failed capacitor which was conveniently replaced at no charge by the manufacturer, simple case of infant mortality. But read on, if you wish to see how the load was simulated, then measured, and found to be OK. (simulation was in error, as determined by experiment)
 

OPCOM

Moderator
Steel Soldiers Supporter
3,657
27
48
Location
Dallas, Texas
RE: Re: enclosing the genset

Matt, I am really glad you asked. Here is a paraphrase of an excerpt from an e-mail I sent to gillette, the manufacturer on June 24. They have no answered yet. How about that?? Maybe I have to call and speak with an engineer. In any case:

[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[

The load I am powering is fairly constant. Here are the details:
Outlet in use: 120/240V - 30A.
leg A: 11 amps draw
leg B: 13 amps draw

===

loads:
8000BTU 120VAC air conditioner (typical unit with capacitor run motors)

12000BTU 120VAC air conitioner (typical unit with capacitor run motors)

3 amp induction motor (no run capacitor, it's the type with the internal centrifugal start switch)

transformer-type 12V 37A linear power supply Astron RS-50A with 5 amp load. At this load level it is essentially a 120W 120VAC resistive load.

transformer-type 12V 25A linear power supply Astron RS-35A with 4 amp load. At this load level it is essentially a 96W 120VAC resistive load.

four 120VAC electronic ballasts running a total of eight 4ft. 32-watt T-8 flourescent lamps. (typical electronic ballasts)

===

Now, I believe all these loads should be perfectly acceptable, especially with the unit running just under half the VA rating. To the best of my knowledge, I have no "dirty" loads. No SCR's, etc.

]]]]]]]]]]]]]

I would say mostly inductive due to the airconditioners? -so could I have a power factor issue?

I have an oscilloscope handy onboard the truck but have not attempted to check the phase ralationship between the voltage and current.
 

OPCOM

Moderator
Steel Soldiers Supporter
3,657
27
48
Location
Dallas, Texas
RE: Re: enclosing the genset

After speaking with Gillette, and trying several tests, I have learned alot about the unit.

1. it should run at 61.5Hz no load
2. no-load volts might only be 113/226VAC or so.
3. half-load volts should be about 125/250VAC
4. full load volts should be about 115/230VAC

This is because the set's alternator is compounded, meaning that the more current is drawn, the higher the voltage goes, until at about half-load, the set's internal resistance starts to affect the ability to pass enough current to maintain the voltage, so that at full load, the voltage is back down to the lower limit of the spec. At a tested 1250 watts resistive load, the voltage was 115/230V. -so the unit needs some load.

In obeisance of the factory's advice, with a resistive load, I will next measure the voltage and frequency at increments up to 6KW output in order to be sure the generator (alternator) is in order.

The load will be made of electric stove elements which are about 1KW each at 240VAC. I will make this load bank and note the voltage/power curve as well as the frequency. (At this point because of their kind and thoughtful explanations, I am begining to suspect it is OK, and what I have is an unpleasant mix of reactive and bizzarre electronic loads -I have not even addressed the air conditioners' power factors, but later for that.)

When everything in the shelter is on, I get 108VAC. When I turn -off- the four "dual 40 watt high efficiency electronic ballasts", the voltage rises to 113V. I may have a very nasty electrical load. Not only some power factor issues but some capacitor-input rectifier loads. Such loads cause high peak currents right at the crest of the voltage waveform and cause harmonics.

Info:
"Emergency engine-generator sets, installed to provide power during utility outages, usually aren't very large. Thus, they're very limited in their capacity to handle harmonic loads and may fail during an emergency."

Well mine won't fail because it is oversized, but it is obvious that the load is probably the issue. Below are two simulations representing a combination of the four 64-watt electronic ballasts, and a normal resistive load. (please disregard any apparent discrepancies, as the software was degined for actual power DC supplies and therfore has to be tricked with regard to an AC load)

red = load current
green = AC line current
blue = AC line voltage
yellow = load voltage

Both powered loads "R1" are, at the end of the day, resistive. The value of R1 was adjusted between the simulations to bring the resistive load power to be about equal.

The load's power in the resistive circuit is:
72.8V * 11.37A = 827W
The load's power in the reactive circuit is:
157.8V * 5.26A = 830 watts

(the differences in the RMS voltage and currents shown are due to one being a simple rectifier and one having a large DC filter capacitor that keeps the voltage higher by charging all at once at the peak of the half-cycle of AC voltage waveform, and then maintaining the voltage by slowly discharging during the rest of the AC voltage half-cycle.)

Notice the high peak AC line currents in the one with the reactive load, as well as the accompanying distortion of the AC line voltage waveform resulting from these abrupt changes in current.

The load on the generator is already at 13A, and the reactive load of the flourescent ballasts adds 35-amp spikes to this. The generator is rated for 25 amps. The spikes are too short in duration to blow the breaker, but they cause huge power losses because during the time of the spike, the load due to the spike is 35A*120V or 4200 watts. It's just like a power surge, repeating over and over...

The spikes occur near the peak of the AC waveform. Not only that, but a harmonic energy of 5 times the 60Hz AC frequency is being generated. The 4200 watt pulses of harmonic energy, repeating 120 times a second, is what damages electrical equipment. This cannot be stopped by surge supressors. Those things supress voltage surges only.

Now, see the simulation of a resistive load. This is representative of of regular light bulbs. Notice how the voltage and current curves are nicely aligned, and there are no sharp pulses or distortions in the waveforms. In fact, the voltage and current start and stop at the same time. How nice. How desirable.

(NOTE: although the current (IR1) shows a 17 amp peak value, the RMS value of this 11.37A as calculated. I showed a >2* higher average current load for the resistive-loaded AC supply, in order to illustrate that a large non-reactive load is preferrable to a small reactive load.)

So, on to the next part of the quest. Load-banking the generator set and using an oscilloscope to observe the current and voltage waveforms to actually see what is going on.
 

Attachments

Recovry4x4

LLM/Member 785
Super Moderator
Steel Soldiers Supporter
34,012
1,810
113
Location
GA Mountains
RE: Re: enclosing the genset

Stop that crap Patrick. My head is killing me and I only read a few paragraphs. Am I the only one feeling stupid?
 

gimpyrobb

dumpsterlandingfromorbit!
27,786
757
113
Location
Cincy Ohio
RE: Re: enclosing the genset

Thats funny Kenny, I only made it to where he started in with the red/green/blue/yellow. Once I saw it was not a bad generator, I realized I was in over my head.
 

ARMYMAN30YearsPlus

In Memorial
In Memorial
3,585
7
0
Location
Parkville, MD
RE: Re: enclosing the genset

Couldn't you bust that surge from the capacitance with some big dialectric filter caps? Just a thought because they would work the current issue for you. Other than that the end of the mount near the mud flap is that closed when tranisiting yet? The small plate that could be hinged was mentioned only that hinges could be used to keep it in place with pull pins substituted for the hinge pins. then a small clip pin would hold it in place up top. Remove three pins and then remove shield. Otherwise very interesting analysis of the generator performance under load. Thanks for keeping this updated.
 
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website like our supporting vendors. Their ads help keep Steel Soldiers going. Please consider disabling your ad blockers for the site. Thanks!

I've Disabled AdBlock
No Thanks