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help please with diesel generator add-on advice

cranetruck

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RE: Re: enclosing the genset

Patrick, you should compare the military version(s).
Other than that, I refuse to get submerged in this discussion, it could change one's life style. :)
Did they offer you a job yet?
 

OPCOM

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RE: Re: enclosing the genset

I am sorry these are so long, hope it is not too boring or weird.

Thanks for all the support, I have not enclosed the set from the rear yet, but I will partially enclose it in a semi-permanent way, just like the front. I figure that sitting still, the thing is open enough with the inboard and outboard areas open, and right now I do not plan to use it while moving.

If I did want to generate while moving, I would prefer to force-cool it. -That is why I was after Wreckerman's fan off that chemical shelter trailer.. but who knows, I need to go look at the pics again and maybe ask for one of the GM compressors, they look like the A6 model, which has more displacement than most of the Sanden, etc. models today. It might have to be rebuilt with the R134 seals though, not too sure. In the end I would rather use the engine for a/c while moving, although 5-10HP to the GM kompressor is a fair chunk of the 130 or so that the engine makes!

About the flourescent lights and their evil harmonics, that has to be definitely addressed. I have to first do scientific measurements using a curent transformer and an oscilloscope and see how the theory compares to the reality.

About the military generators, I believe that if the sets are brushless and capacitor-regulated, they would behave the same. (where are the diagrams - in some other thread perhaps. I wonder if a brush-and-slip-ring unit would suffer the same hardship? Likely yes, because the nasty curent spikes would still cause the same I^2R losses. So, the military stuff is going to be alike for the most part.

By the way, at home we do not have an issue with loads like this because the electrical service is 100 or 200 amps, not 25 as with the generator.

I did some dreaming on this and it might be possible, using the simulations as though they are fact, in lieu of measurements which will take me a couple weeks to get to, to deal with the pulses without impacting the 60Hz waveform. Let's keep in mind I am using sims for the discussion, until i am able to measure.

At first, I was thinking to find a way to reduce the pulses while leaving the normal power alone. How do you cancel out capacitance? with inductance! But if I match the inductor (choke or coil whatever you want to call it) to the characteristics of the spike, then it might become a series resonant circuit and this would cause some spectacular destruction of the lamp ballasts (high reactive voltages >1000V would short out the diodes). There is possibly some value of inductance, selected for an imperfect match at the resonant frequency, that would help but I need the real measurements to calculate that. Also, the pulses from the ballasts change width with voltage, as the ballasts have a regulator inside that keeps the power fairly constant.

The images below show a possible modification for inside the ballast itself, unknown how it would work except that it would reduce the harmonic spike amplitude and frequency and possibly have side effects on the regulated part of the ballast, maybe heating it because although the DC voltage would be lower, the current woud become higher. Also notice the resonant current (green) is about twice the 60Hz frequency in the first one. This could also cause some distortion of the AC waveform, but it looks pretty good here. Even harmonics are not as bad as odd harmonics. I don't think it is a good solution though, and look at the very fast current reversal in the middle of the waveform. The inductor would also be as large as the size of a 3" cube. From top to bottom, notice how the less inductance is inserted into the ballast's power supply, the more the curent waveform becomes like the stock-standard case of the present inexpensive ballast design. These general curves apply to most any rectifier-type power supply.

It was suggested to add capacitance to the AC side of the circuit. Adding it in parallel in enough capacity to supply the 35 amp spike would cause a very large power factor (voltage and current out of phase) issue. Adding it in series with the lamp ballasts to limit the current to 5 amps (132uF/20 Ohms reactive @ 60Hz) would reduce the voltage to about half and the lamps would not light.

So, it's not a simple issue, I hope I can find a solution. I don't want to go with wasteful, heat-producing light bulbs or with "regular" flourescent ballasts. Regular ballasts might have an acceptable power factor, especially with two lamp ballasts where one lamp leads and one lamp lags the incoming AC voltage waveform. But i have already spent the $ to put these in. A last resort would be to go to the magnetic 2-lamp ballasts, requiring the lamps and the ballasts to be changed, keeping the fixtures. Those are fussy about starting in cold temperatures and on generator power.

One possibility is a "line filter", a so-called low-pass filter for AC power. I might try this. It would be easy to just open the power distribution panel and insert it into the live circuit there. I have no way to simulate that.. anyone got a decent graphical simulation package? This one is free but limited. It's for designing high voltage power supplies for vacuum-tube amplifiers.

In the next installment, a friend is bringing me a box of used oven elements next week for the load bank test, and I'll have to scare up or possibly make a wideband current transformer to get the real data.
 

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Recovry4x4

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RE: Re: enclosing the genset

Not boring me at all Patrick. I wished you would have wrote it in Madarin though. The little stick figures make more sense to me.
 

m-35tom

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RE: Re: enclosing the genset

now kenny, some of us find it fascinating how complicated some people can make things................
patrick, i hope you understand, a lot of people don't even know how to check their brake fluid, or how the 'air gets to the wheels'. wouldn't it have been easier in the long run to just get a mil genset on a trailer? then you could sell power to others.
 

OPCOM

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RE: Re: enclosing the genset

Hi Tom,

I'm not making it complicated on purpose, this is troubleshooting. The problem itself is very complicated. I hope that by documenting this and explaining what I am doing, someone else facing funny generator issues could be helped. Sure most people won't get alot of the details, but there are a few here who probably understand it.

It's like my previous lack of understanding about synchros in a transmission. I was asking alot of questions about them before, and there were some good explanations after all, which led me to some very techncial writings on the web and I am completely satisfied. Most people would not bother to read about those things and why they work and the different designs, but there were some people here who understood them to those levels.

If I had a military genset on my only trailer, there would be no room for my ATV. If there's a military trailer that I could mount this set on, and still have about 7FT left for the ATV, I don't know what model it would be.

Also I am limited in trailer size by what I can park in the city street. Currently, I get away with the M105 because I'm in an old neighborhood (no HOA) and everyone including the city and police let it slide so far because I am in the SDF.

I have had the generator trailer for some time and considered various options before getting the onboard set.

Any trailer I'd want to have would have to carry something equivalent to the innards out of the red trailer (or the whole 'box' if I want to secure it against prying fingers) plus enough room for the ATV, as shown on the M105 trailer.

The red genset trailer shown is 8800 watts, 1800RPM, conservatively rated and has a 25 gallon tank. It was from the VFD in a small town. It's OD green now and has all new RV genset muffler, jacks, new lights, other things..

So there's my dilemna, if i'm going somewhere camping or under orders that I need a genset, then I want the ATV along as well. I'm open to suggestions for better solutions and am willing to trade out generator trailer and M105 trailer, do mods, use a civillian trailer as long as it has at least 12" clearance, etc..
 

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lstmate

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Why not...

Why not place the generator on a platform above the ATV? Cut off the axle and tongue of the trailer and some angle iron you should be able to support the frame of the genset trailer above the ATV and low enough that maybe a standard bow and cover set could still be used. Even without the bow and cover set the genset would be protected by the current housing.
 

OPCOM

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RE: Why not...

I have to admit I never thought of that. IMHO the load would be too high. The generator alone probably weights 500-600Lbs. and the box with frame etc is going to be about 1200LBs. I think it would be too dangerous for me to handle alone and to tow, prone to tipping. I like the cearance of the generator trailer, it is almost 12". Of course the M105 is much higher.
 

cranetruck

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RE: Why not...

Patrick, use two gensets, one for equipment that can handle the voltage/frequency fluctuations and one (smaller) for sensitive radios etc.

BTW, your analysis above is the only way to really solve a problem, to first define and understand it. Keep up the good work.
 

lstmate

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Ok then...

If you think that would put the weigh too high then set the generator in the bed of the trailer and run a set of ramps up and on top of it to park the ATV on... Sure the ATV ends up setting at an angle but you do end up having both with you.... I really think that with the wide stance of the trailer to begin with it would be OK with the weight just high enough to get the ATV's under and with the weight centered on the trailer.... Let's face it it is not like the deuce has enough speed that corners will be taken at high speeds anyway.... Not knocking deuce speed only being somewhat realistic.... Lets face it you could always make a box on the bottom of the trailer like you did the deuce on both sides and fill them with bottles of water for several reasons, 1. In case of emergency you have drinking water, 2. ballast for the generator weight... You would not really need 500-600 lbs of water probably only 150 to 300 lbs of water. I think the quick and easy calculation is 1 gallon of water equals 10 lbs. so you are talking 15 to 30 gallons of water needed to offset the genset weight.... i am sure the ATV can also act as ballast for the Genset too so maybe consider how much you would be trailering without it... If the answer is probably not moving after ATV is removed then I really do not see it as a problem....

I know...get out of your sandbox and leave you alone.... OK enough said I am out your sand box...........

For now anyway...

Garry
 

OPCOM

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RE: Ok then...

I really don't want to stack things vertically. Probably the best solution is to 'fix' the lighting load, and whatever else is messing with the power factor, and go forward with that. The 6000 watt generator is big enough. I'm going to go do some reading because I am sure some august soul has dealt with this as childsplay before and I would learn the secrets of their craft if possible.
 

doghead

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RE: Ok then...

I really don't want to stack things vertically.
I agree Patrick, for a trailer load stacking / not good, but for a Cheeseburger/very good!
 

OPCOM

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RE: Ok then...

Ryan, do you know the cargo area length (minus the toungue) on that one? I really like the adjustable stabilizing legs on the M390C and it looks really interesting. Do you have a TM on it?

Does the one you mention have a landing wheel or a bracket? I ask because working alone, I need a crank-adjustable wheel like the M105A2 (what the TM calls the "adjustable caster assembly". It's for safety, not always a soldier B to help me attach the thing once I have done my best to back into it gently.
I might be able to put the wheel on the M390, not sure.

The long tounge (more of an a-frame) on the M105 helps prevent the bed from hitting the truck when turning sharp. I think I'm up gainst a length issue trying to put a large genset and leave room for the ATV. So the bigger one you mention would probably be better.
I thought about trying to mount a genset up front of the bed, but was concerned about jacknifing when backing up. I am an amateur at parking trailers and accidentally cut an air line on the trailer due to coming too close to a jacknife, so i could only imagine the sickening sound made by a diesel generator being crushed.

M105 dimensions:
bed: 9' 2" L x 6' 2" W (cargo length -I believe same length as the cargo space on all M103/M105 types)
overall: 13' 9.5" L
The front 4' 7.5" length is the frame and lunette in front of the body (this is what I am calling the "tounge")
 

cranetruck

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RE: Ok then...

Patrick, in one short sentence, would you mind stating the problems/issues you have with the power generating system, specifically, so that a solution can be found that makes sense?
Going from distorted waveforms to stacking equipment on a trailer is what gets a bit hard to sort out. :)
 

rmgill

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Re: RE: Ok then...

OPCOM said:
Ryan, do you know the cargo area length (minus the toungue) on that one? I really like the adjustable stabilizing legs on the M390C and it looks really interesting. Do you have a TM on it?
The ones I know of are missing 1/2 of their legs. They are pretty large though. They also have some demountable bases made up of lattice frame tube (not sure if they were AL or Steel). Bascially it was so you could take the radar set off the trailer.

The TM is 9-2330-235-14&P. I found it on Logsa. It might be here on SS.

Does the one you mention have a landing wheel or a bracket? I ask because working alone, I need a crank-adjustable wheel like the M105A2
(what the TM calls the "adjustable caster assembly".

I can't recall. They had their own form of landing legs (5 around the platform for the radar set. The more basic model has 3 (one front, 2 rear) which, with the units that are on this set, could be rebuilt I suspect. There might be three among the two remaining at my friend's work site. I've just looked at the images and I can't quite tell. I think the Landing leg on the 390c is the retractable type too.


The long tounge (more of an a-frame) on the M105 helps prevent the bed from hitting the truck when turning sharp. I think I'm up gainst a length issue trying to put a large genset and leave room for the ATV. So the bigger one you mention would probably be better.
They are designed, by my understanding, to not interfere with the truck unless you're backing up.

This is the basic trailer with a hawk launcher mounted.

I thought about trying to mount a genset up front of the bed, but was concerned about jacknifing when backing up. I am an amateur at parking trailers and accidentally cut an air line on the trailer due to coming too close to a jacknife, so i could only imagine the sickening sound made by a diesel generator being crushed.
The 2 1/2 ton, two wheel trailer might be better, that's got the lower frame rails between the wheel wells AND it has space for two gen sets or one BIG genset. That's the M200A1.

The M390 C is 171 inches overall and 90 7/16" wide.
 

OPCOM

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RE: Re: RE: Ok then...

Here is the separate generator trailer I have in case anyone wondered what it looks like today and what the specs are. It's a civvy model. I would consider putting the powerplant on a military trailer as long as my other stuff could go. It would be a huge (for me) project and the engine alone weighs 500LBs, I envy those with large workshops and open spaces.
http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/txsg/gear/index.html

But I already have a new genset on the truck, and it will be perfectly fine if I can fix my loads. -that's the goal.
 
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