davidkroberts
Active member
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why do people have to stick their noses in others business..... Stay strong dude dont let them push you around. Your house, your truck, and your taxes paying for it all.
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Me Vs Windsor Township - Victory
- Thread starter Crazyguypa
- Start date
- 307
- 2
- 18
- Location
- York, PA
We have a lot of "outsiders" moving into southern York County from Maryland. Much cheaper to live here and commute down into Maryland and DC. Same cash can buy you a much bigger house. I could care less about the "outsiders" since we are all outsiders, but when someone moves to the area and takes on those that have lived here, that's BS.
I would be at the meeting on Wedesday if not for a conflicting meeting. I told Frank that I'm willing to write a letter or statement on my company letterhead indicating that I use these trucks as TRUCKS and not "recreational vehicles". I could not use a "recreational vehicle" for my business. WHat's the difference between and International CXT and the Deuce? The important thing for Wednesday is to show these vehicles are trucks and are used as trucks. A bunch of guys and gals showing up with restored vehicles with flags and all kinds of parade stuff probably shows more of the "recreational" component of the truck as opposed to the "truckness" of the truck. That's just my opinion. I have done some work for Windsor Township and am trying to think like they do.
I'm watching this closely as I do not want this to set a precedent in York County. Everyone in York County with MVs should watch this closely. I don't live in Windsor Township, but in the neighboring township. So it is important to me.
Frank, are you presenting anything? How much time do you have to make your case? Power point or anything like that? Just curious.
Wish you the best Frank and if you want that letter, let me know.
Jake
I would be at the meeting on Wedesday if not for a conflicting meeting. I told Frank that I'm willing to write a letter or statement on my company letterhead indicating that I use these trucks as TRUCKS and not "recreational vehicles". I could not use a "recreational vehicle" for my business. WHat's the difference between and International CXT and the Deuce? The important thing for Wednesday is to show these vehicles are trucks and are used as trucks. A bunch of guys and gals showing up with restored vehicles with flags and all kinds of parade stuff probably shows more of the "recreational" component of the truck as opposed to the "truckness" of the truck. That's just my opinion. I have done some work for Windsor Township and am trying to think like they do.
I'm watching this closely as I do not want this to set a precedent in York County. Everyone in York County with MVs should watch this closely. I don't live in Windsor Township, but in the neighboring township. So it is important to me.
Frank, are you presenting anything? How much time do you have to make your case? Power point or anything like that? Just curious.
Wish you the best Frank and if you want that letter, let me know.
Jake
Somemedic
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Frank
All the folks who have those RV's and jeeps and such would be the first people Id reach out to and ask them for support. If Kip Alison (your code/zoning tyrant) is suck-sessful in bulling you he can, at his own whim, begin terrorizing those other folks as well. I'd ask those people for their support and have them come down to the meeting, ya know? Get the ones who are sympathetic to the cause at least. Have them petition or file an amendment to the ordinance that exempts vehs and/or RV's that are plated for road use.
BTW:
Looks like you might get ur cash back. Id also ask for legal fees:
http://www.windsortwp.com/message_board_details.asp?topic_id=5584[/url]
and
Having fun with Kip...
http://www.windsortwp.com/message_board_details.asp?topic_id=5583
Also for yous to peruse, the Commonwealth of Pennsy's DOT rules and regs. Im throwing this to the braying jackals for them to digest. Might still fire the lawyer and leave it to us brilliant legal minds:
http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/vehicle_code/index.shtml
All the folks who have those RV's and jeeps and such would be the first people Id reach out to and ask them for support. If Kip Alison (your code/zoning tyrant) is suck-sessful in bulling you he can, at his own whim, begin terrorizing those other folks as well. I'd ask those people for their support and have them come down to the meeting, ya know? Get the ones who are sympathetic to the cause at least. Have them petition or file an amendment to the ordinance that exempts vehs and/or RV's that are plated for road use.
BTW:
Looks like you might get ur cash back. Id also ask for legal fees:
http://www.windsortwp.com/message_board_details.asp?topic_id=5584[/url]
and
Having fun with Kip...
http://www.windsortwp.com/message_board_details.asp?topic_id=5583
Also for yous to peruse, the Commonwealth of Pennsy's DOT rules and regs. Im throwing this to the braying jackals for them to digest. Might still fire the lawyer and leave it to us brilliant legal minds:
http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/vehicle_code/index.shtml
I am on your side as a Deuce owner. I am also a lawyer. I am sure that your and your lawyer have prepared a good case and I wish you good luck. With due deference to your lawyer, I offer the following as a fellow Deuce owner:
Your post appears to indicate that you were cited under 302.1 (1) and (2) and maybe (3). The section you referenced regarding the use of recreational vehicles does not apprear to be applicable. This is about unenclosed storage/parking of a truck not riding recreational vehicles like quads or snowmobiles on your property. It is not clear exactly what they say you are doing in violation of the cited provision.
Section 302 Unenclosed Storage and/or Parking
302.1.Recreational Vehicles, Boats, Campers, Trailers and Trucks - Within any (R-1, R-2 and CO) Zones, the storage of recreational vehicles, travel trailers, trucks, boats, and trailers used solely for the transport of the residents' recreational vehicle(s) is permitted only according to the following requirements:
1.The parking of such vehicles (up to 72 hours per week) is permitted in any yard, so long as the vehicle is set back no less than ten feet (10') from any street right-of-way, and six feet (6') from adjoining property lines;
(A deuce is not an RV, the term is not defined above and the common usage is not a deuce, despite the definition provided in the other ordinance you linked to. A duece is a truck and that is hard to argue, but maybe the term is vague as to whether they mean all trucks or commercial trucks or dump trucks or other.)
2.The storage of one (1) vehicle shall be permitted per lot behind the building setback line, so long as the unit is set back no less than six feet (6') from any adjoining lot line. All areas used for the storage of vehicles shall be maintained so as to keep vegetation properly trimmed and debris or litter disposed of regularly. All vehicles shall maintain required licensure and prevent the leakage of fuels and/or lubricants into the ground; and,
(If you were cited for not having a valid registration and tag, prove it was registered at the time the citation was issued. If you were parking in accordance with this section, you should be prepared to prove it.)
3.In the R-1, R-2 and CO Zones, truck tractors and/or trailers, construction equipment, including, but not limited to, backhoes, dump trucks over 12,000 GVW, cranes and forklifts, and school buses (excluding vans) shall not be parked or stored on or off a public or private street or highway. The parking of such commercial vehicles off a public or private street or highway shall not apply to lots with a gross lot area of one (1) acre or greater; however, in no case shall such commercial vehicles be parked within two hundred feet (200') of any adjoining residentially-zoned property. This section shall not apply to local deliveries, loading or unloading, or construction equipment used at a construction job site. When loading or unloading, said vehicles shall not be permitted to have their engines, generators or refrigeration units of any sort in operation for a period exceeding a total of thirty (30) minutes in any twenty-four (24) hour period. Truck tractors and/or trailers used for residential moving purposes shall be permitted to park for periods not to exceed twenty-four (24) hours. This section shall not apply to farm vehicles not normally used as a means of conveyance on a public highway.
1 and 2 appear to apply to parking on your property. It looks like under 2 you are allowed to park without a time limit if you are behind the building setback line and more than 6' from the property lines, otherwise 1 limits you to only 72 hours and you still need to be more than 10' outside the right-of-way and more than 6' of a property line.
Are you parking on the street like in your interview? If so the cited provisions 1 and 2 do not appear to apply.
If they are citing you under 3 you could argue that the deuce is not a truck tractor or a dump truck so that the provision does not apply. Show what a truck tractor is and a dump truck. If a passenger car or light truck can park on the street, you should be able to park your deuce as well, particularly as it is not registered as a commercial weight truck per se. Your Deuce may be of a "commercial" weight class, but it is not registered as such. I have seen some townships and HOAs bascially treat a one ton dually as a commercial truck and constrain a residents right to park it outside as such. You may be getting cought up in that type of situation.
Erie makes me insure my Decue and F-450 dump trucks as "commercial vehicles" at about $300 per year, despite the fact that they are registered as an antique and a farm truck, respectively and neither have a weight registration.
Stick to the issues and facts, keep cool like in your interview and beat the Township down.
Your post appears to indicate that you were cited under 302.1 (1) and (2) and maybe (3). The section you referenced regarding the use of recreational vehicles does not apprear to be applicable. This is about unenclosed storage/parking of a truck not riding recreational vehicles like quads or snowmobiles on your property. It is not clear exactly what they say you are doing in violation of the cited provision.
Section 302 Unenclosed Storage and/or Parking
302.1.Recreational Vehicles, Boats, Campers, Trailers and Trucks - Within any (R-1, R-2 and CO) Zones, the storage of recreational vehicles, travel trailers, trucks, boats, and trailers used solely for the transport of the residents' recreational vehicle(s) is permitted only according to the following requirements:
1.The parking of such vehicles (up to 72 hours per week) is permitted in any yard, so long as the vehicle is set back no less than ten feet (10') from any street right-of-way, and six feet (6') from adjoining property lines;
(A deuce is not an RV, the term is not defined above and the common usage is not a deuce, despite the definition provided in the other ordinance you linked to. A duece is a truck and that is hard to argue, but maybe the term is vague as to whether they mean all trucks or commercial trucks or dump trucks or other.)
2.The storage of one (1) vehicle shall be permitted per lot behind the building setback line, so long as the unit is set back no less than six feet (6') from any adjoining lot line. All areas used for the storage of vehicles shall be maintained so as to keep vegetation properly trimmed and debris or litter disposed of regularly. All vehicles shall maintain required licensure and prevent the leakage of fuels and/or lubricants into the ground; and,
(If you were cited for not having a valid registration and tag, prove it was registered at the time the citation was issued. If you were parking in accordance with this section, you should be prepared to prove it.)
3.In the R-1, R-2 and CO Zones, truck tractors and/or trailers, construction equipment, including, but not limited to, backhoes, dump trucks over 12,000 GVW, cranes and forklifts, and school buses (excluding vans) shall not be parked or stored on or off a public or private street or highway. The parking of such commercial vehicles off a public or private street or highway shall not apply to lots with a gross lot area of one (1) acre or greater; however, in no case shall such commercial vehicles be parked within two hundred feet (200') of any adjoining residentially-zoned property. This section shall not apply to local deliveries, loading or unloading, or construction equipment used at a construction job site. When loading or unloading, said vehicles shall not be permitted to have their engines, generators or refrigeration units of any sort in operation for a period exceeding a total of thirty (30) minutes in any twenty-four (24) hour period. Truck tractors and/or trailers used for residential moving purposes shall be permitted to park for periods not to exceed twenty-four (24) hours. This section shall not apply to farm vehicles not normally used as a means of conveyance on a public highway.
1 and 2 appear to apply to parking on your property. It looks like under 2 you are allowed to park without a time limit if you are behind the building setback line and more than 6' from the property lines, otherwise 1 limits you to only 72 hours and you still need to be more than 10' outside the right-of-way and more than 6' of a property line.
Are you parking on the street like in your interview? If so the cited provisions 1 and 2 do not appear to apply.
If they are citing you under 3 you could argue that the deuce is not a truck tractor or a dump truck so that the provision does not apply. Show what a truck tractor is and a dump truck. If a passenger car or light truck can park on the street, you should be able to park your deuce as well, particularly as it is not registered as a commercial weight truck per se. Your Deuce may be of a "commercial" weight class, but it is not registered as such. I have seen some townships and HOAs bascially treat a one ton dually as a commercial truck and constrain a residents right to park it outside as such. You may be getting cought up in that type of situation.
Erie makes me insure my Decue and F-450 dump trucks as "commercial vehicles" at about $300 per year, despite the fact that they are registered as an antique and a farm truck, respectively and neither have a weight registration.
Stick to the issues and facts, keep cool like in your interview and beat the Township down.
M37Dodge
Member
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It is today folks!!!
BTT.
Frank -
I'll be there ~6:15. The meeting is scheduled to start at 6p.m. instead of the usual 7p.m. per the Windsor Township website.
I suggest calling the township office before heading over in case the meeting is suddenly rescheduled. Some zoning boards do this to frustrate peoples' attempts to participate in hearings.
M37Dodge
BTT.
Frank -
I'll be there ~6:15. The meeting is scheduled to start at 6p.m. instead of the usual 7p.m. per the Windsor Township website.
I suggest calling the township office before heading over in case the meeting is suddenly rescheduled. Some zoning boards do this to frustrate peoples' attempts to participate in hearings.
M37Dodge
ironhorsethegeneral
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Would like to be there but live to far away. GOOD LUCK!!
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Frank I`m pulling for you. Only a couple things. Get your dicks in a row, do your thing the right way. Don`t lower yourself to HER/THEIR leval.
I`d be there if I could my friend.
Sincerely
Neil
I`d be there if I could my friend.
Sincerely
Neil
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OOOPPPPSSSSS !!! sorry for the typo.. 
DUCKS
Neil
DUCKSNeil
Floyd
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Best of luck Frank. Keep us posted.
Floyd
Floyd
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Go gettem Frank!!!
BillIdaho
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Some of us have to stay up late.......keep us posted as soon as you can.
M37Dodge
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The Windsor Twnshp made its decision tonight. . .
And? I'll let Frank tell the story. Frank???
And? I'll let Frank tell the story. Frank???
Daneil
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RE: The Windsor Twnshp made its decision tonight. . .
opcorn:
opcorn:
Crazyguypa
Member
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- windsor, Pa
Well, I won. I am so relieved this is over. Thanks to Andrew (M37Dodge), Ray (Ramy), Jeff and Jae (from FLMV.net) for coming out to the hearing. I got to go first (out of three issues) and I'm glad, the sooner the better.
For a quick synopsis since it's late and I need to get some rest (finally), the township had the burden of proof. The zoning officer had to prove to the zoning hearing board that the truck was in fact a "recreational vehicle". The zoning officer was under fire from my attorney, how he came up with the classification. Then Andrew (M37dodge) started in on him, then others got up to make comments and all i can say is that I would not have liked to been in the zoning officers position.
They ended up citing me for 302.1.1 and 2, not 3. Section 3 dealt with comerical trucks, construction vehicles and had GVWR restrictions. So basicaly they had to prove I fit into 1 and 2, which i did not.
The board dismissed the case, and now I hope this is all over. It's been going on for months and I would just like things to get back to normal. The money I spent on the lawyer (John Ogden) was well worth every penny. I'll get $350 back from the township for my appeal, so that some good news.
I just want to say thanks to everyone here supporting me, and letting me know i was not in this fight alone. Sometimes you just have to stand up and hold your ground, and don't give in. I've gotten tons of support from people in the community and from people who don't even live anywhere by me, and to tell you the truth....it's a little overwhelming.
Thanks again for all you support and comments on this issue....that has now come to a close
Frank
For a quick synopsis since it's late and I need to get some rest (finally), the township had the burden of proof. The zoning officer had to prove to the zoning hearing board that the truck was in fact a "recreational vehicle". The zoning officer was under fire from my attorney, how he came up with the classification. Then Andrew (M37dodge) started in on him, then others got up to make comments and all i can say is that I would not have liked to been in the zoning officers position.
They ended up citing me for 302.1.1 and 2, not 3. Section 3 dealt with comerical trucks, construction vehicles and had GVWR restrictions. So basicaly they had to prove I fit into 1 and 2, which i did not.
The board dismissed the case, and now I hope this is all over. It's been going on for months and I would just like things to get back to normal. The money I spent on the lawyer (John Ogden) was well worth every penny. I'll get $350 back from the township for my appeal, so that some good news.
I just want to say thanks to everyone here supporting me, and letting me know i was not in this fight alone. Sometimes you just have to stand up and hold your ground, and don't give in. I've gotten tons of support from people in the community and from people who don't even live anywhere by me, and to tell you the truth....it's a little overwhelming.
Thanks again for all you support and comments on this issue....that has now come to a close
Frank
Pawnshop
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Good news indeed, nice to see the good guys come out on top. Congrats!
Elwenil
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Congratulations! Good to see that right came out on top for once.
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Here's to the victory Frank!
jwaller
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AWESOME!!!! Congrats but I wouldn't count on this being over. I would imagine you might bee seeing them again. I hope not.
I went thru something like this myself with my HOA and zoning committee. I was lucky in the officer that came out to my place quickly realized I was not in fault and that was the end of it.
I went thru something like this myself with my HOA and zoning committee. I was lucky in the officer that came out to my place quickly realized I was not in fault and that was the end of it.